Can Cp get another woodie?
Rob, you called out Jeff about his post:
Ask the average CP guest if they want another wood coaster. "You mean those old things?"I swear, enthusiasts can't think of anything other than their own views.
and said it made no sense, then went on to say that
I would hope that in the midst of this endless research they conduct, they would look at some hard facts and realize the potential of a good wood coaster.
If their customers (market research) say they don't like wooden coasters, why in the world would they ever build one?
It is hard to say whether or not a wooden coaster would be a good investment at CP. Does anyone have any cost comparisons for major types of rides? How much (rough estimates or averages) would a mid-sized woodie cost? How much would a B&M custom floorless or flyer (air?) cost? How much did spider-man cost?
I know a woodie wouldn't bring in the same amount of people as a record breaker, but it wouldn't cost as much either. If they did their research, they could easily build a woodie that would win awards and be the best around.
Also, to whoever said they should make a racing woodie, that seems unlikely and repetitive.
Yeah, I called Jeff on his comment, yet I never called him a name or insinuated that he should take my questioning of him as a personal attack. It's not my fault he can't handle people disagreeing with him.
If marketing says that guests don't want a wood coaster, then they should look at what those guests are claiming to be a wood coaster experience. I'm sure that no CP guests want another wood coaster like Mean Streak, but what if the park built a coaster like Lightning Racer? Market research is only part of the answer because very often it is limited by what the sample is familiar with.
And how is Knott's all that different from CP?
They're all small to mid-sized parks.
Every last one. Kennywood. Compounce. Knotts. Holiday World. Dollywood. Knoebels. The park Hades is in. Heck, you could even toss in two flagged parks for their GCIs, SFMW and SFA and you're still in small park territory.
SFGAdv will be breaking new ground next year by being the first truly *major* park in some time to even try a wooden coaster. As Jeff said, it's possible it can turn some heads. If that coaster makes it, if SFGAdv can successfully market it and not have people ask "why'd they install an old, out of date, slow, boring piece of crap like that?" then you'll see them at the other big parks, your CPs, SFGAms, etc. etc. but I think the possibility is mediocre at best.
The small parks have the advantage cause it's their star attraction, they can throw endless resources at it, they're banking their entire reputation on it (or in some cases, them). The large parks don't have those resources, they've built their reputation on steel coasters, on high speeds, high thrills and adrenaline rushes that only steel coasters can provide. They've got to allocate their resources over a much broader range of rides, and don't have the time or money to pay as close attention to a major wooden coaster as they need to. They have incredible momentum in the steel direction, you can't throw a disruptive force like a wooden in there and expect it to come off well, it's just not. People aren't going to ride it simply because it's not steel and doesn't go 400 ft and 120 mph. Install some big flats that thrill, have SFGAdv's be a success that maybe even gets into the buzz among the surprisingly knowledgeable CP crowd, then yea, they'll give a wooden a chance, but not without something to show them it's worth it.
PKI did more harm to the wooden coaster market at large parks, especially those on the eastern seaboard, with SoB than anyone could have possibly imagined.
The one exception to all this is Hershey. With 10 coasters, and what I would consider "major" park status, they maintain two of the best wooden coasters around, and a third that's a solid backup. But, they have an entire mega-company fueling their budgets, and probably have more resources to devote to maintenance. But this is the exception and it's the only exception. You cannot bank a multi-million dollar purchase, and two years of advertising on the outside shot that you'll be an exception to the rule too. Wall Street won't like that.
I see what you are saying but what steel coaster could they add that they don't already have. My feeling is that any steel coaster that they add, is going to be more of the same and not a new experience. I am not sure how that is marketable. Also I think they have catered enough to the thrill market, it might be time to add an attraction the whole family can go on.
Which leads me to believe they would be better served adding a well themed sally interactive dark ride, a well engineered smooth medium sized wooden coaster, or a non looping family steel coaster. I think going for the tallest or fastest coaster is out of the question, really because it would just be a bigger version of Top Thrill Dragster. Another large flat ride is a possibility and might depend on how well received MaxAir is.
Jeff, what steel coaster would you add to the park. I just feel spending 12 million or more on a steel coaster might not be the best investement. A B & M vertical drop coater could be a possibility depending on how well Sheikra is perceived at Busch Garden's Tampa. I guess also a B & M flying coaster is also a possibility. I can't think of any other type of steel coaster they are missing.
Here are the list of possible attractions that I think they could add in not in any particular order:
1. B & M flying Coaster
2. B & M vertical drop coaster
3. Medium Sized Wooden Coaster
4. Sally interactive Dark Ride
5. Family Steel Coaster, perhaps themed also
We're possibly in agreement on something finally 'gator ;) (if I'm catchin' your drift ... )
It's a complex relationship since they're separate but interlinked. All the Hershey Resorts are full of Hershey/Reese's products. You get to see a 7' tall pack of Rolos walking around the park and there's a whole attraction dedicated to showing how Hershey's chocolate is made (largest use of almonds in the world). Not to mention the trust that operates the Milton Hershey school.
After all that, I'm just saying that the size and amount of new rides at Hershey isn't "directly" dependent on the number of Kit-Kats you eat.
Now onto the real topic...
I'm sure there are all these marketing surveys that are saying that people don't want wooden coasters at CP, just more big, tall, fast steel coasters. Was a question about how much people are willing to pay for these gigantic things part of the survey? Sure you can have a $20 million coaster every other year, now you give me $80. Oh yeah and that soda you're drinking is now $10.
You do realize that people who commission their own surveys sometimes skew the questions to get the results they're looking for in the first place.
I also think you are mistaken claiming there is only one exception to the woodie rule: Hershey. What about PKD, Carowinds, Canada's Wonderland, and one of my favorites...Blackpool Pleasure Beach?!! Heck, Blackpool has five woodies to boot. It's really all just perception in these market surveys like Rob's saying. Give the public a really good wood coaster, and they'll love it. And it's a line of crap to think that only *steel* rides can give you high speeds and intense thrills. Where would metal rides be today if it wasn't for the classic original thrill provided by wooden coasters during the last 121 years?? They are still extremely popular don't kid yourself.
$h#t...I just rode Villain yesterday, and all kinds of people sitting around me on various rides were gushing from excitement that the coaster provides. Same thing with Big Dipper. Everytime I ride those two coasters, I hear patrons commenting over how much fun the rides are. I've watch hords of little kids run down the exit ramp on dipper and run right back up the entrance. I've also heard people say countless times "Cedar Point needs one of these". Now tell me again how there's no place for a good woodie at the Point. People will love a good wooden coaster period.
Wood Coaster Fan Club - "Sharing a Passion for the Classics"
I don't expect anyone to agree with me all the time, what fun would THAT be? What I *do* appreciate is the ability to discuss things with other knowledgeable people. Sometimes I concentrate on the *business aspects*, sometimes more on the fun. I usually try to make it clear WHICH perspective I'm coming from...
Case in point: SheiKra. I haven't ridden it yet (soon though). I expect I will *love* the thing. I have also been predicting a relaively lackluster increase in attendance for the ride. But that's an issue for A-B, I'm just gonna enjoy the ride! :)
I thought the Minebuster was running pretty well, but wasn't overly impressed by PCW's wood overall.
In 15 years of data, I've never met a survey that wasn't *slanted* in some way....I've probably "steered" the results myself a few times, even if only subconsciously...;)
Them's the breaks when you get to write your own satisfaction surveys....no wonder my people love me...;)
Good wood makes people want more wood (Hershey, Holiday World? ;)), bad wood makes people want steel.
Given the way Blue Streak is running, maybe CP could use a new wooden coaster...one with a 25-30' lift maybe? ;) The place really is lacking for kiddie coasters...LOL!
*** Edited 6/11/2005 2:55:58 AM UTC by rollergator***
RatherGoodBear said:
You do realize that people who commission their own surveys sometimes skew the questions to get the results they're looking for in the first place.
Exactly!
As for the spinning coasters... I have never been to Lagoon but I do know that the Whirlwind at Seabreeze was running INSANE last August- definitely a lot faster than Waldameer's ride which, in it's defense, had been operating for two days when we were at the park last 4th of July. The thing seemed to be a lot faster this year but still not as fast as our memorable rides on the Seabreeze coaster.
Rob Ascough said:
The lines for the wood coasters at SFOG are just as long as the lines for any of their fantastic steel coasters.
Ummm, yeah... not so much. I love a good woodie as much as the next guy, but your claim is just not true. Cyclone has become so bad that most people that I go with won't ride it. There is never a long line for it. GASM is still popular, but nothing on the level of Superman, Batman, etc.
Now, on the topic of a woodie drawing people to the park, I'll make the 3 1/2 hour trip to Dollywood to ride Thunderhead because it rocks! I'm certainly not driving to the middle of Tennessee for the local culture, haha. The ride is incredible and well worth the trip. The other steel coaster (Tennessee Tornado) is fine and all, but it's all about Thunderhead. So yeah, I think wood can draw a crowd (insert adult humor here) ;)
I'm all for a good woodie at CP. I was so disappointed by Mean Streak when I rode it the first time. It doesn't do a thing for me. Blue Streak on the other hand is a fun ride.
my $.02
Right. Because the 'local culture' in Atlanta is such a gem...
Where is that rolls eyes smiley?
But on Topic, There are times when a park is expected to have an 'off' year, CP is no exception. Instead of not putting something in, I think a nice, well designed, perhaps smaller woody will draw people in. What I wonder is how many people maXair brings in? Granted, I'm not saying CP didn't need flat rides, but if they get another small woodie, they can still claim "most coasters" and market that on some of the non TTD/Millie/WT years. As long as they're keeping up with the Joneses next year and all...
The reason the GP at CP do not like wood is that they really don't have GREAT wood coasters (I do like BS though). A day at CP is comparing the BEST steel coasters in the world to an average out-and-back AND a wood-class stinker. Put Ghostrider in that park and then tell me the GP do not like wood or make comments like "those old things."
P.S. Took a bunch of junior high kids to Knotts last week. Their favorite by far was Ghostrider. How could these young kids like such old crap?
Knott's is a smaller sized park, they really don't have a lot to worry about when compared to a SFGAdv, SFGAm or CP. Therefore, they can throw a lot more maintenance and weight behind Ghostrider and it doesn't devalue the rest of their multi-million dollar rides. Jr High kids will like the biggest, fastest and longest ride in the park, and at Knott's that's Ghostrider. I liked Xcel better, but that's cause I'm an enthusiast. If all I was looking for was the biggest, most drawn out adrenaline rush, Ghostrider's it, so it's no surprise that's the kid's favorite.
King's Island is a major sized park, you missed a critical part of my post. Wood has done wonders for them from a business standpoint (higher attendance, although that could also be from the kids area and waterpark which I think is a lot more likely) but from a marketing standpoint for wooden coasters, King's Island's position as a major park with a lot of visibility has personally killed much of the ability for major parks to build a wooden coaster. While the GP may not know it as much, you can bet the higher ups at all the parks in a 500 mi or more radius have personally seen the crap that is SoB. Combine that with experiences with Mean Streak and Herc, and what redeeming factors are left for a wooden coaster at a major park when these parks already have a great track record with steel?
And don't feed me any enthuisast garbage about wooden giving a better ride, or say you *think* people might like a wooden ride. You *know* they like the big, fast steels. You know that people refer to woodens (generally) as "that old coaster" no matter how new it is. People in general are stupid, they *do* think bigger and faster = better, no matter how skewed that opinion is.
Can a park build a wooden coaster and have it be successful? Sure. Is it a guarentee? No way in hell. And I sure as hell am not banking $5 mil of stock holder's money on something with probably a 40/60 shot of being the equivalent marketing power of something that's over 150' and over 60 mph with 9 loops.
There is a perfectly logical reasoning to explain Holiday World's success. #1 - there's nothing really around to compete with them. #2 - the waterpark. #3 - the wooden coasters are their star attractions, not the support/nostalgia that you're trying to catapult into the limelight. #4 - the waterpark. #5 - the atmosphere. #6 - the waterpark. My fiancee has family right near Holiday World and I'll give you why they are successful. When she told them we might come out this summer cause I want to get to Holiday World to ride the coasters, they said:
"Why would you do that? Those coasters suck, they're wooden and they're old. The water park is the only good part about that, and you guys have Sandcastle." (they have been to Pittsburgh before).
So your basing the success of Holiday World on the strength of the drawing power of their coasters alone is very much overstated. Holiday World is successful for a myriad of reasons beyond their coasters, wood, steel or otherwise.
CP *can* build a mid-sized wooden, this is true. But, I think they need to build it and another Huss Giant flat or something to that extent along with it. The wooden will probably end up being the hit of the installs, but it won't be the thing that will get folks through the gates. *** Edited 6/11/2005 4:07:34 PM UTC by Impulse-ive***
But I will give you that smaller parks tend to take care of their *expensive to maintain* woodies than do the corporate themers. So then it makes no sense to me that a park that charges less for food and also offers free parking and drinks (in the case of Holiday World), has the capitol to invest and maintain a wooden coaster so well whether it's their bread and butter or not. Don't you think that these corporate money machines that overcharge for everything including admissions should have even more money to invest in a great wooden coaster. Wood coasters don't get old, they maintain their thrills for years. Geauga's Big Dipper is celebrating it's 80th anniversary this year. Steel, on the other hand, will more than likely become dated as newer technology replaces last years latest recordbreaker/thriller. Good wood has longevity and will survive for years with proper care. How do you think those expensive lawn ornaments in Sandusky and Jackson will be in 2085??
So in my opinion, Concrete Jungleland has enough metal to reach the moon right now!! It's time for them to focus on good wood so the *stupid public* that flocks there in droves can decide for themselves in a fair competion between the two types of rides. Make it fair and balanced, unlike the situation now.
Believe me, because I not buying into your speil, there's room in the future for wooden coasters. Otherwise, Gravity Group, Great Coasters, S&S, PTC, John Fetterman, Leonard Adams, RCCA, Rocky Mountain coasters, Martin & Vlemynx, should all just quit right now and close their operations. We might as well just get rid of all the ones we have since steel is so much more appealing and thrilling...right?!!
All any of us (woodie fans) are asking/wishing for is for Cedar Point to build a really good wooden coaster that they can market as the best. They obviously are a great park with some really good metal rides. It makes me sick to my stomach that they make the claims they do about their "best on the planet" coasters and yet continue to deminish the classic wood coaster, because the Blue Streak is the best they've got, and your right (somewhat), It's not the best example of todays great wooden rollercoasters, as good as it is. Modern wooden coasters have so much more potential with todays technologies, so don't kid yourself.
Wood Coaster Fan Club - "Sharing a Passion for the Classics" *** Edited 6/11/2005 7:43:11 PM UTC by Thrillerman***
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