Can Cp get another woodie?

I am not surprised at your post Rob.

I think it is well documented that Cedar Fair does not like the maintainence involved with a wood coaster, add to the fact that CP's audience probably doesnt enjoy wooden coasters as much as most of us do and its no surprise we havent seen a new wood coaster there.

There is no way a new wood coaster would draw in more peeps like the tallest, fastest steel coaster in the world has. Are you actually saying people would have vacationed from far away for a new 100ft wooden coaster that they probably have within 200 miles of them? If that is so why did Kennywood bother building the Steel Phantom when they could have a new woodie for half the price?

I do not deny that GAdv's alleged new wooden coaster will draw, but I also dont think it is going to draw as many people as KK, or TTD will/has.

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Rob Ascough said:
There are plenty of parks in the country where wood coasters are not just "old things" that no one wants to ride. Ghostrider is one of the most popular attractions at Knott's, which has two world-class steel coasters.

(snip)

The only people that refer to wood coasters as rickety "old things" are the ones that frequent parks owned by companies that regard their wood coasters as their own red-headed stepchildren. Many parks have proven that wood coasters are oustanding investments.

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Part 1: Two world-class steelies at Knott's? I *hope* you're referring to MY Anton and Silver Bullet...;)

Part 2: At the parks that really take care of their wooden coasters, you rarely hear people using the terms "rough, rickety, old-fashioned, out-of-date"....those words get used at the parks that think braking is an effective form of wood-coaster maintenance.

edit: If CP were to build Lightning Racer, you'd see how popular new wooden coasters can be, and even the *jaded* CP fans would be lining up to ride...word-of-mouth is STILL the best advertising. KK/TTD will get people to the park to TRY it once, but once they're in the park, and ride a GOOD wooden coaster, they'll come back for more....and they'll bring friends, relatives, neighbors, etc. :)

*** Edited 6/10/2005 4:40:57 PM UTC by rollergator***

Blue streak is a great ride, but look at the lines for it and mean streak durring the day. They are more or less a walk on durring most of the day.

On the same hand, look at the lines for the major steel coasters in the park at any time of the day and you will see that they all have lines.

I love a good wooden coaster, but I think that cp has not looked into getting another woody because of this.

I miss CCI...

going on, there still is the gravity group and S&S, but I think GCI would be the right company for this type of thing. For a mid-sized woodie, GCI gives the most bang for your buck. (thank you mike!) Wildcat, Lightning Racer, Thunderhead, Gwazi, Ozark Wildcat, Roar(s) - they haven't gone wrong once.

They minus well take down Mean Streak and put up a GCI woodie in its place, since enthuasists think it's too rough and trimmed, and the general public thinks it's old and rickety. It's a valuable plot of land.

I do think a GCII racer in Mean Streak's place would be highly succesfull. Call it Gemini 2. :)

With the way Blue Streak was running on my visit, I'd hazard a guess and say the MAIN reason it has short lines is because of its relative inaccessibility...;)

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eightdotthree said:
I am not surprised at your post Rob.

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Glad to hear that... I think.

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There is no way a new wood coaster would draw in more peeps like the tallest, fastest steel coaster in the world has. Are you actually saying people would have vacationed from far away for a new 100ft wooden coaster that they probably have within 200 miles of them?

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Obviously we measure the success of a coaster with different yardsticks. While a coaster like TTD or Kingda Krap is surely going to get a bunch of people to their respective parks so that they can experience what marketing regards as the "ultimate roller coaster experience", only a good ride is going to keep them coming back. While KK has certainly earned its share of accolades since opening to the public, how many park guests are really satisfied with a ride that not only breaks down at regular intervals but now manages to break down for long periods of time? I've said it before and I'll say it again, even the best roller coaster does nothing for a park when its sitting idle.

My point is that a good wood coaster is good for any park's long-term bottom line. A wood coaster, unlike a steel coaster, is not going to be obsolete in a decade. Look at Arrow shuttle loops and how many parks were quick to get rid of them only a few years after installing them. You don't see many parks eager to get rid of wood coasters that have been around three times as long for the simple reason that a good wood coaster is always going to be a good wood coaster.

You said that KK will get vacationers to the park and I agree with you on that- a big roller coaster is sure to get the attention of people willing to spend money to travel. But what do you think the core of Great Adventure's business is? Vacationers or locals? And what do you think is going to make the majority of locals happier? Cool-looking but inconsistent KK or a solid, reliable wood coaster that operates every day from open to close?

And yes, I think a GCII racer would be a great idea for the park. Properly maintained, a ride like that would surely show CP patrons what a wood coaster experience should be!

rollergator: You're right- Knott's does have three world-class steel coasters! Sorry about the oversight... I would never downplay the significance of a Schwarzkopf intentionally!

*** Edited 6/10/2005 5:36:53 PM UTC by Rob Ascough***

They are going to keep coming back for good rides that continue to run well. Not for a rickety pos, which is what CP and GAdv have in their woodies (except for blue streak.)

I don't think CP has any trouble keeping their local crowds. GAdv has probably burned out a lot of regulars with their lousy customer service, so a new ride like KK gets old customers back and pulls people from the other destination parks in the area.

And if CP and Great Adventure had better wood coasters, people wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them as rickety pieces of s**t. Can you imagine if either of those parks had a Phoenix, Legend or Boulder Dash?

Great Adventure has burned a lot of regulars and something needs to be done to get them to come back and keep coming back. Installing a $25 million record-breaker will surely get them back once but what happens when they come to the park and not only get treated to the same crap that kept them away but also get denied the chance to ride the coaster that got them to come back in the first place? Those patrons are probably going to be that much harder to win over the next time around.

This being the case, wouldn't Great Adventure been better off building a reliable $10 million wood coaster and spending the other $15 million in park upgrades, proper maintenance for the existing coasters and flawless training programs to make sure that all employees know how to take care of patrons and give them a reason to return?

I am not disagreeing with you there, I think they blew 25 mil. I just dont think a woodie is always the answer like you do.

And when did I ever state that a wood coaster is always the answer?

Seriously? You may not have said "and the answer is..." but you are insinuating that wooden coasters are better investments for any park. This wouldn't be the first time either.

Jeff is right, we as entusiasts think of ourselves first and don't look at the big picture.

To answer the thread question:

Sure, just give it a giant size viagra.

8.3.....Rob was staying on topic, can CP get another woodie.

Wooden coasters are NOT always better investments, if I owned K-Wood I'd be looking at something steel and compact...Anton Wildcat?!!? ;)

But for the initial outlay, wood *is* infinitely cheaper to purchase....maintaining a good wooden coaster is a lot harder, esp. one with laterals and some intensity behind it. THAT is why I'd go with GCII, because the trains that c-punk builds means your maintenance is cut in half....or even less.

Having a Hammersly or Eads on hand certainly makes the wood a better *long-term investment*...;)

See, every time this comes up, y'all need to get up in my grill and start name calling and being generally ridiculous.

Let's separate our preferences (and mine) from the perception of regular guests. First off, I don't dislike wood coasters, and in fact my favorites remain at Holiday World. Get off my case.

Second, friends of mine who do have access to real live actual research, conducted by consultants and parks, indicates that the marketability of a wood coaster at a large park like Cedar Point is not great. That's not to say it's a hopeless cause or that such a ride would be a wasted investment, just to say that the impact is not the same as what you'd get out of a big steel ride.

Third, you can come up with exceptions all day long, including Ghostrider or whatever, but those are exceptions, not verifiable trends. Like I said, I've seen the research.

Finally, I said don't think like an enthusiast because your thinking isn't going to be anything even remotely likely the execs at a park like Cedar Point. If you want to get into the business mind of those people, you need to put your own perferences aside.

Is there potential for perceptions to change? Absolutely. A year from now, I suspect there will be enough buzz about the potential of wood coasters that heads will turn. Hades is the first step in that shift. If one of the vendors (TGG or GCI) can really demonstrate construction techniques that can reduce maintenance costs, then you might get Cedar Point to start thinking that way.

Actually, I think an easy way to see what the public wants is by checking out the line lengths (1 train operation aside).

These arguments that "you don't know what the GP wants because you are an enthusiast" don't hold water in my opinion.

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Jeff said:
...the impact is not the same as what you'd get out of a big steel ride.

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I agree that the *immediate impact* is not going to be as great...but neither is the immediate expediture. Looking longer-term though, I think Lightning Racer will be around YEARS after StormRunner has run its last laps....

Most steel coasters will last 15-20 years maximum (Antons excepted, LOL), and most business models certainly won't look any further than that.

It IS a shame IMO that so many wooden coasters are NOT kept up properly, and it DOES give the *perception* that wooden coasters are "old, rickety, etc.". I don't think many park-goers in Indiana share those views.

I remember suggesting a while back that CP might be *watching Dorney* to see how things progress when that particular supersized POS woodie was removed....Mean Streak, someone's calling your name...;)

8.3- No, this isn't the first time that I've suggested a park would be wise to build a wood coaster, but you're claiming that is always my answer. I've been on this site a lot longer than you have (going by our profiles) so unless you've gone back and read of my 3000+ posts, don't say that is always my response. And for the record, I've been saying for years that Knoebels- a wood coaster Mecca- needs another steel coaster before investing in another wood coaster. Same for Holiday World, Indiana Beach and Silverwood. Would I mind seeing another wood coaster at any of those parks? Hell no. But I think they would all be better served by some kind of steel coaster at this point in time.

Jeff- Who 's name-calling?

How typical of you to get all huffy and claim that people are shooting flaming arrows aimed at your head when someone disputes something you say. Honestly, the percentage of people on this site that want to make things personal with you is so small, it's probably not even measurable. If you can't deal with people debating with you without getting all bent out of shape, don't run a website with a forum.

Ghostrider is an exception to the rule but it is proof that a wood coaster can remain the headlining attraction in a park with some damn fine steel coasters. It's a park that Cedar Fair owns so I would hope that in the midst of this endless research they conduct, they would look at some hard facts and realize the potential of a good wood coaster. Maybe it's not as marketable and another type of ride (they can't claim it to be the -est anything unless they design it to be the best) but it would be a wise investment in the long run for any of their parks, save for Knott's and Michigan's Adventure.

I'm not on this site to change Cedar Fair's opinion of wood coasters. If I wanted to do something to sway their thinking, I would write to them and state my case. I'm here on this site because I enjoy talking coasters, and sometimes that type of conversation involves passion instead of business trends. Last time I checked, this was an enthusiast site, not an extension of Amusement Business.

Can Cp get another woodie? Yes. But why would they?

CP has made a name for itself installing the tallest and fastest coasters on the planet. I imagine that shortly after installing MS, they realized that very tall and very fast wooden coasters were very uncomfortable. So they sat back and invested in more steel. And so has their competition.

CP markets itself as a major US resort destination as well as a regional amusement park.

Major US resort destinations that CF competes with likely include Disney, Universal and Busch Gardens franchises. Between them, they operate 11 parks, and only one (Busch Gardens Tampa) has any wooden coasters. Wood doesn't drive attendence at these competitors parks.

Even if you consider the Six Flags flagship parks (Great Adventure and Magic Mountain), there has been no new recent wood. Paramount tried something new at it's flagship park with SOB and you have to admit, it was a marketing success. However, they were not confident in the product because they never attempted to add wood in other Paramount parks.

Regional competition (midwest) has a few classic woodies, which are much older and more respected (revered?) than Blue Streak. CF will continue to maintain Blue Streak to maintain some shred of classic coaster dignity. The only noteworthy new wood installation in the region was Hersheypark's Lightning Racer, which was more an acknowledgement of the success of CP's Gemini and Kennywood's Racer than a competitive push for new woodies.

I don't see wood as being the next big thing. Unless some new and innovative wood coaster product is introduced (possibly at SF Great Adventure in 2006), CF has no incentive to invest in more wood. Other products are much more attractive, such as:

• 3-D ride-through attractions like Amazing Adventures of Spiderman and Curse of Darkastle
• highly themed launched coasters like Revenge of the Mummy, Italian Job and Expedition Everest
• a spinning wild-mouse coaster
• a diving coaster

*** Edited 6/10/2005 7:46:13 PM UTC by greatwhitenorth*** *** Edited 6/10/2005 7:52:27 PM UTC by greatwhitenorth*** *** Edited 6/10/2005 7:52:53 PM UTC by greatwhitenorth***