Six Flags is cleaning up
Just because you saw that they "got a ton of riders" and saw long lines for these coasters doesn't prove anything.
With such horrible capacity, Chiller and Deja Vu will naturally generate large amounts of people in the queue on busy days because their guest/rider output is so incredibly slow. Longer lines does not necessarily mean a more popular attraction.
And saying Six Flags doesn't give a damn about its customers because they removed certain problematic rides is a bit ridiculous. Just read what you wrote. Really. It's almost borderline funny.
Can't say that the 50 Bucks I pay for a season pass is a bad deal. Some parks we all know to stay away from and others we brag about. Been to 4 SF this year and had mix feeling for each. Let's hope for the best and hope they built more than they take down.
Ronman said:
More mindless babbling so get ready.
Okay, ready.
I just hope 2009 will bring the fight back to Six Flags or it will be to late, it's a brave new entertainment world. Six Flags needs to reinvent itself or it will be a slow death.
The problem with your posts is that Six Flags did *exactly* what you were advocating between 2000 and 2005, and the chain shed attendance and profits so quickly that the leadership was overthrown and replaced.
The current management of Six Flags chain is not catering to you and only you any more. They are catering to exactly what Shapiro has been saying -- families. And maybe in the future, the parks will get more coasters and thrill rides but for now, I'm just happy the chain is still around and I can ride on many of the great rides there.
Six Flags is where people go for thrills. They will never be Disney. Now, I'm OK with not adding thrill rides quite as frequently in the past, if that gets them back in the black, but, to me, they are slightly alienating their base by not adding any new rides, they might really alienate them by removing great ones that are relatively new.
Krax, just because long lines don't necessarily mean more poplularity, it certainly doesn't disqualify it from that categorization either. (Very long lines--must not be popular!). You can certainly gauge by post-ride reaction, on ride reaction, my own reaction, ride reviews. While it is theoretically impossible to "prove" this I will use my experience to propose that the only ride at that park that comes close to matching the intensity of Vu is V2, which is more of a one-trick pony and, this is my subjectivity speaking, not as good of a ride. When you remove the most intense thrill ride in an amusement park, well, I don't know --it's like taking Rasheed Wallace off of the Pistons and trading him for a late round draft pick and arguing that the on-court product will be better because, after all, Rasheed can be a little "tempermental".
Nothing is even going in that space next year. So much for improving capacity!
Pretty much everyone north of the Mason-Dixon (and many of those south of it) either has to fly, or spend more than a full day to drive.
The west coasters are a different deal; a good chunk of the western US population isn't so far away from Anaheim that they couldn't drive. Even the Bay Area is drivable for a multi-day trip. The Bay Area to Anaheim is about the same as Atlanta to Orlando.
In terms of your analogy (I love hoops, LOL)... I'd rather the Magic get Rasheed than IoA get a DV...
Ronman said:
More mindless babbling so get ready.
Absolutely perfect in this one sentence you stated. That is exactly what you do in every post you make.
My favorite MJ tune: "Billie Jean" which I have been listening to alot now. RIP MJ.
The other point is this: If people were indifferent to the ride, they wouldn't be so angry that it's always closed, and it's status wouldn't be the constant hot topic on the park's message boards.
Rollergator, I was annoyed by the breakdowns, but I sure don't want them to tear the ride down! The point that seems to be missed constantly here is that THE RIDE WAS OPEN ALMOST EVERY DAY this past year after the month of May. This is what irritates me--the ride was down for probably about 97% of its first year, 35-40% of its second year, and maybe 75% of its third year. To me, it might have made sense to tear it down then. But it seems like they have finally figured out how to get it running daily (albeit with breakdowns), and now that most people have ridden it and likely enjoyed it, they are tearing it down. The PR from tearing it down now will, I believe, be much worse than if they had torn it down after 2003, when hardly anyone had ridden it.
:)
Lets get to the shows plan. I think Six Flags hasn't kept it a secret but they spent the past two years work on show product. Like it or hate it thats the former Six Flags 2 year plan. From the sounds of it that wasn't doing the trick and now they are moving to a different direction. Opposite of Cedar Fair's "2 year plan" sure, but because they just did that.
New coasters are in cedar fairs 2 year plan, sure, as well as Six Flags. Just because they are a different kind of coaster doesn't mean they arent there. Not to mention you currently only familiar with Six Flags 2008 coaster plans, who knows whats happening in 2009. If you compare CF to SF for 2008 coaster plans, I'm not sure that CF has the edge you think it does. They wouldn't really have a whole lot going for them if they didn't just close a park and relocate all those rides, so thats something to think about.
As for all the being upset about Vu being removed. Sure its a great ride, but that doesn't mean the park has lost its entire thrill ride collection. The park still has one of the best collection of thrill rides in the nation. You make it seem like it was the only thrill ride they had, thank god it isnt because a lot of people would be a lot more pissed off at how much it was closed.
When it comes to The Dark Knight, you can't keep calling it just some Mack mouse. Sure it is a Mack mouse, but thats not what the ride is at all. It is so much more and it will deliver, even to the thrill seeker crowd. Another thing to note is it is not a replacement for Deja Vu, so stop calling it one.
Finally as a coaster enthusiast if you choose not to go to great america and you would prefer to go to Cedar Point, by all means go ahead. But the majority of guests to the park are not coaster enthusiasts and a park 6 plus hours away isn't competition for them. *** Edited 11/15/2007 5:38:02 AM UTC by IntaminHater***
The question is....what do you PERCEIVE you're getting?
Same analogy works for the theme parks, folks. Same analogy.
-CO
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
1) I will agree that the landscaping is fine. I've been somewhat defending Ronman thorught this thread but he will have to stand alone on that one.
2)A better analogy about DV than Burger King or Rasheed Wallace is Blockbuster Video. I used to work there ten years ago before netflix-- it was very popular on the weekends. And people were always frustrated that that they couldn't get the red cover new releases, because they were always checked out. But the smart people got to the store on Tuesday, when the movie was first released, or Thursday, before the weekend rush. And people who really wanted the new releases on the weekend would wait in the store until people returned the movie, because it was worth it. Now, the last thing that Blockbuster would want to do would be to eliminate all new releases in the store because of the frustration rooted in their frequent unavailability. The old releases would get stale, because people have seen them. People might even rent the same movies multiple times, but the value in them reduces significantly after multiple viewings.
Great America used to have a certain buzz to it, because they would get a big new thrill attraction every other year. There was a buzz in the line for the rides, in the station, when you'd see the attraction from the highway or watch the new ad on television. The peak for this park from a thrills perspective was 2001, when Bull was only 2 years old and DV and V2, two brand new state of the art thrill rides, were added. There was a real excitement about being in the park and I felt a great deal of appreciation towards the park for adding these awesome rides. The park's peak, overall, was probably 2005 when Superman was only two years old, Deja Vu was running well, and the waterpark was just added.
Over time, however, the value of these rides fades as they are ridden and reridden, and the park needs to replace this value with new value, or the park loses value overall. Iron Wolf was a killer ride in 1991--now it's a pretty poor ride as newer, much better rides have come along. Even truly great rides like Raging Bull lose luster-- in its first year or two I would gladly wait an hour for it, but the intensity of the 2001 additions made Bull seem a little tame and, while still enjoyable, it's not the experience it use to be.
How has Great America changed since 2006, how has Shapiro "better served his customers," what value has been added?
Positive: Smoking ban
Negative: Parking raised from $10 to $15, operating hours reduced by an hour during June, one of premiere attractions removed, no new significant attractions.
You can defend the new strategy, but please don't tell me the park right now is a better value to the customer than it was in 2005, before the new leadership.
Kevin Max said:
2)A better analogy about DV than Burger King or Rasheed Wallace is Blockbuster Video. I used to work there ten years ago before netflix-- it was very popular on the weekends. And people were always frustrated that that they couldn't get the red cover new releases, because they were always checked out. But the smart people got to the store on Tuesday, when the movie was first released, or Thursday, before the weekend rush. And people who really wanted the new releases on the weekend would wait in the store until people returned the movie, because it was worth it. Now, the last thing that Blockbuster would want to do would be to eliminate all new releases in the store because of the frustration rooted in their frequent unavailability. The old releases would get stale, because people have seen them. People might even rent the same movies multiple times, but the value in them reduces significantly after multiple viewings.
Actually, this is a great analogy -- and I know what Blockbuster did about it. Blockbuster (at least around here) started *guaranteeing* that the movies would be in stock, and if not would offer a free rental of anything else in the store. They would guarantee one new movie a week this way. That way, if you came in and you were disappointed that they had rented out all of the movies that you had seen, at least you got to check out one of those old releases (which for Blockbuster, had reduced in value since less people were watching them, so it was a win-win).
In Six Flag's case, they were up against the same thing. You had to plan to go on Deja Vu, you had to hope the darn thing was open, you had to head over there and be prepared to wait a long time for it, and even then there was no guarantee that it would work long enough for you to get on.
And that's where the analogy falls apart. Six Flags can't offer the guests anything if the ride just screws up and finishes itself off for the night. Six Flags can't offer the guests anything if only 7200 people can ride it in a day, and there are 30,000 people in the park. Six Flag's hands were tied with it. Sure, it was ultimately the guests decision if they wanted to wait in line for it for a couple hours (eating up a large portion of their day), but even if they liked the ride, it probably wouldn't give many people the perception of a great value.
So, in many ways this is like Blockbuster -- and unlike Blockbuster who had the ability to increase capacity or offer a secondary option, Six Flags only has the option to keep the ride open and have it disappoint and frustrate people, or take a one time hit on disappointing and frustrating a minority of people. Face it -- enthusiasts are the minority, and a lot of the GP I'm sure isn't very worked up about it. To me, the decision makes sense.
Great America used to have a certain buzz to it, because they would get a big new thrill attraction every other year. There was a buzz in the line for the rides, in the station, when you'd see the attraction from the highway or watch the new ad on television. The peak for this park from a thrills perspective was 2001, when Bull was only 2 years old and DV and V2, two brand new state of the art thrill rides, were added. There was a real excitement about being in the park and I felt a great deal of appreciation towards the park for adding these awesome rides.
2001 was the peak? There was a great appreciation that year? I was able to visit the park multiple times that year, and I saw anything but. Those two "new" rides for 2001 never operated on the same day together. I heard countless complaints that the park had advertised two rides but only had one of them open, and that the line was so long. It really sticks out in my mind as I don't think that I have ever been to a park in a year where there seemed to be such disappointment in the overall experience as there was that year.
Having talked with my relatives from that area, it seems as if Deja Vu is known amongst the general public as "the big green one that never runs." That may have changed, but that perspective was put into place in 2001 when it never opened until October, and I don't think that with its capacity that reputation would have been able to change for a long time.
You can defend the new strategy, but please don't tell me the park right now is a better value to the customer than it was in 2005, before the new leadership.
As a thrill park? Nope, you probably were getting a better value in 2005. As a family with kids? Most definitely now is better than 2005.
Kevin Max said:
Great America used to have a certain buzz to it, because they would get a big new thrill attraction every other year. There was a buzz in the line for the rides, in the station, when you'd see the attraction from the highway or watch the new ad on television. The peak for this park from a thrills perspective was 2001, when Bull was only 2 years old and DV and V2, two brand new state of the art thrill rides, were added. There was a real excitement about being in the park and I felt a great deal of appreciation towards the park for adding these awesome rides. The park's peak, overall, was probably 2005 when Superman was only two years old, Deja Vu was running well, and the waterpark was just added.Over time, however, the value of these rides fades as they are ridden and reridden, and the park needs to replace this value with new value, or the park loses value overall. Iron Wolf was a killer ride in 1991--now it's a pretty poor ride as newer, much better rides have come along. Even truly great rides like Raging Bull lose luster-- in its first year or two I would gladly wait an hour for it, but the intensity of the 2001 additions made Bull seem a little tame and, while still enjoyable, it's not the experience it use to be.
You can defend the new strategy, but please don't tell me the park right now is a better value to the customer than it was in 2005, before the new leadership.
In 2005, they added a great addition that I didn't realize until 2006. I knew that new addition was there, but I didn't go in that addition because I was too busy to go over there, and try it. In 2006, they added a thrill ride. It's called Tornado, and it's not my type of ride at all. It's quite boring. I don't care for it, but it is a thrill waterslide.
In 2007, they added Wiggle's, and that's for the kids. However in 2008, they are taking away family rides like Splash Water Falls, and Space Shuttle America. I imagine the antique car ride is going to be replaced in 2009, but that's just too far from now. Did I like what Shapiro did with the park? Not really, I don't.
For Wiggle's World, he just put in kids rides that the park already has like electric cars which are comparable to the antique cars or the ride that goes up in the air that is comparable to Sky Trek Tower. That part of the park also has teacups which are comparable to Chubasco. How many go up and down rides does the park have now (Dumbo)? They have 3 (Bees, Planes, Helicopters), and one is part of Wiggle's World!
They have a slide thing in Looney Tunes National Park, and they have a smaller one in Wiggle's World. In one of those conference calls, he says something like, it doesn't matter what we put in the parks as in rides because of marketing. It does matter, Shapiro. It does.
Does he know what he's doing? I don't think so. He's trying to get rid of rides, and shows to reduce costs. I think this is going to be a problem in the park. People aren't going to like that. They already took out Trailblaizer the year before, and now they are going to take out more stuff. Instead of reducing costs, ask your customers through raising prices, and giving lower discounts to make up the slack. At SFGAm in 2006 during August, the park had a rough time, and this because of the fact that they ran out of money. There were a lot of rides closed during that time, and I didn't like it one bit.
Make the season passes even higher than they are now. Look at SFMM's price. That's the problem. Cut the excessive spending. SFGAm doesn't need a new roller coaster. Instead they get rid of one, and add one. The park just got one in 2004. The park just got a whole new 25 million waterpark in 2005. For crying out loud, Wiggle's World was like 3 million, and the Operation Spygirl was another 5 million or so. Why in the heck does the park need this 7.5 million ride in 2008? The parks are spoiling there customers, and getting in huge debt because of it. *** Edited 11/16/2007 3:33:27 PM UTC by Spinout***
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