PKIs Flyers to Carowinds?

Knoebels' Flyers have freaked me out on occasion. The thought of those tubs bouncing around like that while suspended by only a few thin cables is a bit unsettling. But that's part of the appeal!

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Coasterbuf said:
I guess I could say the same about you and Paramount itself for that matter. It's not good business sense to piss off your customers.

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When PKI opens next spring, there will be no drop in attendance and people will have a great time, especially with IJ. They don't release attendance figures, but I bet they'll be up next year. Carowinds will have a nice "new" ride and the locals will rejoice, maybe even boost their attendance as well.

Again, show me how this will hurt the bottom line, and therefore the action is "bad business."

The only thing hurt is some people's feelings, not Paramount Park's business.

There is more to business than just the bottom line.

There is? Ha! Tell that to the investors. As long as the company operates legally and ethically, it's all about the bottom line.

The bottom line? It probably won't hurt the bottom line too much just for the reasons you mentioned Jeff.

However it does lesson the people who visited dozens of times a year mainly for this ride and the people they would bring or introduce to it in the future.

Granted SP holders aren't the last of the big spenders but they are a reliablly stable source of the parks income, One which Paramount has promoted to the fullest. I know, Ive had one for the past 9 years except for '97 when I worked at the park. I introduced people to the ride and seen several of them become more fanatical about it than I am and visit far more often than I do or can and they brought people too :) Hopefully that will grow that way at PCAR.

Saying it isn't a smart buisness decision isn't wrong. Expecially when everyone sees there were other options that wernt in the millions of dollar range. A way that they could keep PKI's Guest happy and also bring a version of the ride to PCAR thus improving both parks bottom line and not dissinfranchising anyone!

I sound like a hypocrite by thanking them and also critisising a move they've made. I can't help feeling that way and I speak for nobody but myself in saying that.

Chuck, who will visit PKI in the future, Help them any way I can but I can honestly say I don't have the reason to visit as often as I did.

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Actually, there is more than the bottom line. Corporations have obligations to not only investors but the community/communities that they operate in. I'm not making that up... talk to anyone that knows a damn about good business and they'll tell you that.

If a big manufacturing plant residing in a small town wants to expand by plowing down a forest of trees, they could sure claim that expansion is in the best interest of their bottom line. But that does make it appropriate? Hell no. That manufacturing plant has an obligation to the community, and that awareness for the community prevents such idiotic things from happening. In a perfect world, anyway.

Now before you go on some rant about how the situation is different when we're talking about an amusement ride operating within a theme park, I'll admit to agreeing with you to an extent. The removal of flying scooters is nothing compared to a few acres of trees being cut down and replaced with a factory. But the basic reasoning is the same- corporations are generally obligated to do more than just entertain their bottom line. And supposing that there is heavy objection to the removal of a ride such as the Flying Eagles, I question whether or not the community was a consideration in the decision.

Exactly, Rob.

And that's the problem. When Paramount looks at Kings Island, they see a park that pulls in 3.5M customers a year, with a ride in it that can only move 2,400 people per day. The season is...what, about 120 days? That's only 288,000 riders per season. The ride is only capable of carrying 8% of the park's customers MAXIMUM. They run the numbers, they decide that nobody will notice if they yank the ride out. This is a ride that moves as many people in a day as Adventure Express can run in an hour if they put all three trains on it and move quickly in the station.

That's what the bean counters in Charlotte see. Combine that with Carowinds' need for a new ride, and to them, it makes sense.

But the raw numbers don't tell the whole story. I think Dave Bowers had the best comparison. Taking the Flying Eagles out of Kings Island is like removing the Dumbo ride from Disneyland.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Who notes that Disneyland is on at least their second, if not their third Dumbo ride...

Raw numbers NEVER tell the whole story. Disney has been operating by looking at raw numbers for the better part of the past decade and look at how that company has gone downhill. Especially when you look at stock value and market share.

Numbers are part of what makes a corporation successful. But there are many other factors, and when those things aren't given proper consideration, there may be long-term consequences. I'm not saying that Paramount is a bad corporation or anything like that, all I'm saying is that this move is an example of a mistake that gets made when numbers take too much precedence over everything else.

You know, I never even noticed the flyers were there until we had an event there.

Your comparison, Rob, isn't even realistic. PKI is altering its product, not plowing down a neighboring forest. And in this case, it's not tantamount to Wendy's dropping Frosties, as many people are making this out to be.

Seems to me that anything you disagree with isn't "realistic", Jeff.

I said clearly in my post that the two situations were different and that I was looking for a way to prove how corporations have an obligation to their home communities. In that regard, I think my comparison was spot on. Rideman seems to agree so there is at least one person on this site that gets it.

PKI is altering its product. No one is going to argue that. But when the altering of the product causes an outcry of protest (even if it's a small one), one has to question why the decison was made when it clearly didn't HAVE to be made.

Well...on the up side, at least this made everyone forget about the campground closing.

No Rob. You get it. I get it. Dave gets it. Kris gets it. Chuck gets it. Sean gets it. (Insert name here) gets it... (ad nauseum)... Everyone seems to get it except for Jeff.

Look, the flyers are gone now. There was no staged revolt Sunday night. No people handcuffing themselves to the Flyers. No effigies hung from a tree with any Paramount employees names written on them. Chances are no damage was done to the enthusiast community and your events should go on for many years to come.

Must you continue to take the "hardline" approach that this was a good business decision, Jeff? It clearly was not based on how little monetarily speaking was at stake. Period.

Has it actually been officially announced that the campground is closing? We stay at the campground and were told back in August a final decision hadn't been made yet. It's interesting that the current survey is about campgrounds.

I was under the impression that the current campground area *is* closed for good, but that PKI is relocating it to another area of the grounds to make way for the new resort. I don't know if this is all supposed to be ready for 2005 or 2006, but that's what I was thinking would happen.

+Danny

I didn't take your ride away. It's business, not an emotional issue. Business is often inspired by passion and desire, but it ultimately is driven by a mix of acceptable risks and sustainable profit. This decision doesn't deviate from that.

Im just impressed that after 6 pages the topic is still, ON TOPIC :)

Chuck, who thinks Jeff is wrong also but it's his opinion.

I am always the fly in the ointment, so to speak, and so it goes again...

I don't think that Jeff is *defending* Paramount's decision so much as *explaining* it...

Was it a good decision or a bad decision, BUSINESS-wise? Remains to be seen...One thing IS certain though, and that's the fact that many people have an emotional attachment to their favorite rides. For alot of folks, that seems to have been the flyers. Myself, I was QUITE disappointed when PKI removed KC...the only Togo I really ENJOYED riding.

In the end, continuing expansion generally *does* require occasional removals....this one just hit harder than most. I am sure Paramount is keeping tabs on how this removal affects their business, and I have to agree with Jeff that it's unlikely they will $uffer from this decision.

Personally, I think EVERY park should have a set of SNAPPABLE flyers....IoA first though...;)

lori/dannyp: The last Paramount survey was all about campgrounds...with themes! Maybe they're looking to reinvent camping? :) I begged for nice cabins and a hot tub at the campground, like at Lighthouse Point.

Why is this a good business decision?
-Fairly inexpensive addition to Carowinds (basically the cost of moving and marketing the ride)
-Good new family ride/flat ride/ride for Carowinds

Why is this a bad business decision?
-One less family ride, flat ride, historically significant ride, ride in general at Kings Island
-A move in the opposite direction many thought the park was going in having a high quality, well-rounded collection of flat and family rides (not the one *should* really change much, but I thought Delirium and Scooby were a huge step in the right direction)
-Lowers overall park capacity in a park growing in attendance
-Not a very marketable ride by itself for Carowinds
-Kids, families, enthusiasts upset over removal leading to newspaper articles, dozens (hundreds?) of guest complaints from those who actually have knowledge of its removal, petitions to save the ride for this park, etc.
-It's less expensive and easier to move a ride across the park (especially one with numerous fans and history) as opposed to cross country to the south
-New Larson set at Carowinds would still be fairly inexpensive compared to having to deal with the rest of the cons of removing Kings Island's

+Danny, but what do I know about business?

edit: I need to take that survey, Sunshine. Btw, that's the cutest profile pic evar.com =^p *** Edited 10/19/2004 7:17:03 PM UTC by +Danny***

It's a business decision. That doesn't mean other, possibly better, decisions couldn't have been made instead. Microsoft Bob, the IBM PC Jr., New Coke, the Edsel, KBF Windjammers - all business decisions, all given the green light because they looked good ahead of time. Maybe PKI will lose a few customers, maybe PC will attract a few more than they would have.

I think Al Weber just wants these closer to the corporate offices so he can snap. :)