PKIs Flyers to Carowinds?

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Coasterbuf said:
But there is another "cost" involved in matters such as these. And it's one that is very difficult to measure or even realize it is diminished. Call it charm, call it atmosphere, or if you are Disney, call it "magic".

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I agree with you, but I think some of the folks here are incapable of taking off their enthusiast hats for a moment to see just how relatively inconsequential this one ride really is.

And the bottom line is everything. If it wasn't, BeastBuzz would be free because us enthusiasts areso important and our needs and wants are key to the park's financial success.

Kings Island and other amusement parks definitely don't use awards that they receive from enthusiast groups in advertising and marketing for their parks. It's clearly bigger than the enthusiast community anyways and if you keep missing that and making it about "us" even moreso than we are, I'm done. It's about more than "Waaa, Keyngs Eyeland iz teyking muhy snappie maccheens!!11wok" I think the silly complaint then would be if Kings Island ended snapping and there was a huge uproar people were defending. While that's important to a lot of people, I would rather have an additonal historical and classic family flat ride than a total void. Even "replacing" it with a Balloon Race or Rockin' Tug would be acceptable to me. The park is going to need some things to even out the IJ lines with the low capacity. I would see it as almost essential to advertise something else, even if it's minor, with IJ so that doesn't get mobbed with hours of lines. That's not so enjoyable and makes guests not so happy.

You don't have numbers, so I don't know how you can claim to be more valid than anyone else. Business *is* about making money and keeping as many customers happy is something that will make you money and promote word of mouth about the park. Of course the impact isn't like that of taking out The Beast or even taking out Beastie, but clearly there are some unhappy members of the general public if they're filing complaints with the park and having people sign petitions. And that's just from people that actually know about it from being told in line or reading the Enquirer.

+Danny

Update:

I went to PKI today, just got back about half an hour ago.

The Flying Eagles are COMPLETELY gone, and the concrete pad is torn up, and that concrete is in chunks forming a large mountain next to the old control booth. The Exit booth is gone, and the blue wood side panels from the pyramid center are laying over int he grass, the rest oft he ride is gone.

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+Danny said:
You don't have numbers, so I don't know how you can claim to be more valid than anyone else.

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You aren't listening... my point was that they do. God only knows what they're spending on the new ride, but you can be sure that they're doing it because it will get more butts in the park and offer a return on their investment. If a hundred fewer less people visit the park next year because of the removal of this one ride (and despite all of the crying, I doubt anyone on this site will be among them), this will be more than offset by the hundreds of thousands they'll likely gain with IJ.

I could just as easily take up your side of it and make it an emotional issue, since I was fond of the ride as well, but it's not an emotional issue. To suggest PKI - Eagles + IJ = Lower Attendance borders on insanity.

Lets pretend you were adding a new major section to the site that you figured would make CoasterBuzz more popular or get some members to buy club memberships. Then say you decided to drop the Track Record slot from CoasterBuzz Club and told people that they would have to join the PointBuzz site in order to use it (because you think more traffic at the site and additional ad-time will get you more money over there).

Now, would you rather get all of those complaints from the club members and perhaps have a couple of them drop or not visit the site as often because they decided to keep their own track record or go somewhere else (go to another park or participate in another form of recreation instead) or would you rather just keep it here? Would you be making enough people happy at PointBuzz with the addition over there (pretend they had their own Club too, but they could use some CB Club features as well if they visited here) that would make it worth the complaints at your "flagship site", CoasterBuzz?

I know they're not exactly the same thing, but that's the example I came up with. Maybe that would be worth it to you, but if I had a business, I think I would like to avoid pissing people off or making their "satisfaction points" go down as much as possible. It may not be a step back for them, but it's definitely a step to the left and that's not getting them any closer to being "the best" if they're filtering out things that make up a whole to get them called "one of the best" in the first place.

+Danny

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+Danny said:
Then say you decided to drop the Track Record slot from CoasterBuzz Club and told people that they would have to join the PointBuzz site in order to use it (because you think more traffic at the site and additional ad-time will get you more money over there).

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Oh yes, that's exactly the same thing. I would drop one of a half-dozen site features, which is just like PKI removing one of how many rides? Good analogy.

Flyers are gone.

PKI is doomed.

Attendance drops to all time lows and Paramount sells off park.

Is that how enthusiasts expect the park to become? :)

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+Danny said:
I know they're not exactly the same thing...

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^^Thanks for reminding me why I should never debate with you or care if I'm contributing something useful or not. You could have easily replied to that example, but maybe making a comment like that is how you gracefully bow out.

Chitown, I'm not quite sure that even sarcastic fits the case anyone is trying to make. Nice try though.

+Danny, the fun is back (to leaking out of here) *** Edited 10/25/2004 8:19:46 AM UTC by +Danny***

You come up with a horrible apples to telephone example, and it's my fault. Why would I reply to your example when it's totally irrational?

Maybe you proved my point... It's totally irrational to remove the Flyers. I win. :)

+Danny

*Claps for Danny*

It's kinda sad Jeff when the whole enthusiast community is against you. Wouldn't you start to think that there is something screwed up with your logic?

The main point, keep the Flyers and we'd all be happy. Buy new ones for PCar and we'd all be happy. Take them from PKI and we all get mad.

I say PCar should just take a *small* portion out of their budget, and build themselves their own. They still get the attendance jump, and PKI doesn't have to risk loosing any.

Everyone's happy. :)

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Darth Saambe said:
It's kinda sad Jeff when the whole enthusiast community is against you. Wouldn't you start to think that there is something screwed up with your logic?

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The whole community? Sure seemed like a lot of posts in this thread agreed with me completely.

See, that's more of the same problem. You and Danny make it an issue about emotions and personality. When you can't make a business case, it's suddenly about me.

They're gone, guys. Time to move on.

After 8 pages, I think the point is this:

PKI + Italian Job coaster = increase in attendance (the theory being that a new ride almost always increases attendance)

PKI - Flying Eagles = potential decrease in attendance (the theory being that some people will be pissed that the ride is gone)

PKI + IJ coaster + Flying Eagles = increase in attendance that won't be offset from any decrease in attendance (the theory being that everyone is happy)

Why is this such a tough thing to understand? It's not the kind of business mentality that comes from a boardroom of college graduates, it's just common sense in the way that people from all sides are satisfied.

But Rob why not

PKI - Flying Eagles = potential decrease in attendance (the theory being that some people will be pissed that the ride is gone)

PKI + Italian Job coaster = increase in attendance (the theory being that a new ride almost always increases attendance)

PCAR + Flying Eagles = increase in attendance at PCAR that might actually outweigh any potential lost attendance at PKI and also be more cost effective then buying another one for PCAR

Note: I do see both ways. Personally I would LOVE for the Flying Eagles to stay at PKI. But likely they are not. *** Edited 10/25/2004 6:27:40 PM UTC by beast7369***

I made a realistic business case on page 6 with what I saw as the positives and negatives of the decision and I agreed with some of the things you said on page 7 and appreciated your argument. Just to make sure we're clear, you're telling me that the cost of moving a low capacity flat ride addition to Carowinds is worth more to Paramount than keeping a classic flat ride at Kings Island (while removing another family ride in the same year for a season), a park with a much greater attendance and impact from their business decisions, will make enough guests happier at Carowinds than people they're making upset at Kings Island? Of course that sounds like an emotional issue and that's not even all of the issues, but guest's emotions should play into a park's decision-making process if they're going to make them less happy or visit less often.

That's the decision they made and a risk they're taking and I'll accept that, but I won't claim it's better than buying a fairly cheap new flat for Carowinds with an even higher capacity while keeping a classic at PKI that still attracts guests and at least would keep park capacity even from one you to another. Shouldn't a park growing in attendance be growing their capacity and ride numbers as opposed to removing? Italian Job isn't exactly a high capacity ride and not everyone rides coasters, so for the 2005 season, PKI is going to be lacking two family rides that most people in the family could ride the year before and for most of the park's operation to now.

Play along for a minute (just try this time, ok?). You're going to Kings Island with a friend that doesn't like coasters. None of them. This mainly stems from their fear of heights, so Drop Zone and even taking a trip up the Tower isn't on the agenda. You have to make the best of the day with the rest of the park's attractions. Boomerang Bay isn't open and FearFest isn't going on. Maybe she even has a fear of water (taking out the water rides as well) and haunted houses. They have some decent shows, so that will take up a couple hours of your time. You talk her into Delirium and Tomb Raider and there's another hour between those two. Basically all you have left are the rest of the flats, Scooby Doo, and the train. *That* has to make up Kings Island for you that day. Kings Island becomes a park to you built on it's flats and family attractions.

Now, when two of those are missing in 2005 that she remembers being there in 2004, that's two less things for her to do and it's a little disappointing. Maybe they didn't make the park for her, but they made her enjoy the park even more and put it high on her list to return to since they had a lot of non-coaster things to do. Here's the rest of PKI for her in 2005: Scrambler, Monster, the Carousel, Viking Fury, SR&R, Scooby Doo, Delirium, Tomb Raider, the train,... Is she going to be as happy with ~15% of her rides park missing? Maybe not so much. You can call her screwed or just say she can have as much fun as possible with what's there, but that didn't have to be the case. PKI isn't running out of room and they can't say the park is just as good for everyone with the lack of two of their most popular non-coaster family rides. I think people under 48" could ride the Antique Cars and Eagles as well with a guardian of the right requirements.

For a park like Cedar Point, losing two flat rides while adding a huge capacity coaster doesn't quite have the same effect when their marketing has been in record-breaking coasters for years. At a park where "family fun" has been key, I think the cut will be slightly deeper, even if it does heal eventually.

"PCAR + Flying Eagles = increase in attendance at PCAR that might actually outweigh any potential lost attendance at PKI and also be more cost effective then buying another one for PCAR"

If this is what Paramount finds all of the above true with their decision, I'll be the first to send my congratulations and apology for doubting their expertise.

+Danny *** Edited 10/25/2004 6:35:49 PM UTC by +Danny***

I doubt many - if any - of the GP will even care that the fliers are gone. Enthusiasts? Sure. But I have a hard time believing you'd find an average park guest who was cancelling a visit our who would not return upon discovering PKI lost the flyers in exchange for Italian Job.

I think Scott said it best.

mOOSH [really loved PKI's flyers but not bothered by their removal]

Many care as shown by the newspaper articles, guest service complaints, petitions, and families in line on closing day after hearing of their removal (all from the GP or commented on by the GP). They won't be cancelling trips, but PKI is removing two things without "replacement" for parts of their audience/guests. It's like CP replacing their log ride with a spinning coaster. If I like log rides, but I don't like coasters and/or spinning rides, I'm going to be less happy with the park because they removed something that was part of "my park" without replacement that I could ride. I'll still visit since they have other things to do, but I'll miss that part of the experience and maybe lose some excitement about going.

+Danny, moved on and over it *** Edited 10/25/2004 7:01:00 PM UTC by +Danny***

And that's the point. People will still go to PKI, Flying Eagles there or not. I'm not suggesting that this is going to cause PKI to start bleeding red ink. All I'm saying is that there seems to be a minor yet vocal group of people that object to this move and I wonder how this is going to affect things that go beyond the bottom line.

Is this an emotional issue? Sure it is. One that causes an uproar from enthusiasts, who tend to bring their emotions to an amusement park. But I doubt that enthusiasts are going to be the ONLY ones to notice the ride gone and are going to be the ONLY ones upset because of that. Regular park guests are going to notice that TWO "mild" rides are gone for the 2005 season with no replacement in sight. And if it doesn't affect the bottom line directly, it sure will indirectly... at least to an extent.

I'm sorry, but I still don't see how this makes for a fantastic business decision.

My mom will notice and she was fairly disappointed when she heard the news since she only rides the Flyers (no snapping of course), Antique Cars, the train, the Carousel, the Tower, Scooby, and the Viking Fury (doesn't like fast spinning rides like the Monster or even a Scrambler, won't ride coasters except for the random ride on Beastie or Adventure Express once a year or so, likes water rides occasionally and enjoys Boomerang Bay, big fan of park shows, and loves the park atmosphere). She already has a season pass and she'll go a few times, but if she was "scoring" the park in her head, I'm sure some points would be deducted.

Good debate Jeff and I think it's fair to say that both sides had some valid points (have we exhausted the topic yet? ;)) and I'm sure most of us, including myself, still wish the best to Paramount, Kings Island, and Carowinds and will continue visiting their parks. It was really upsetting to hear people truly complain about the Flyers leaving when attached to things like "this was the only reason I ever came here and now the park sucks", "I wish I wouldn't have gotten a season pass now", "the park isn't getting anymore money from me", "PKI has really gone down the tubes now", "the park makes me depressed just thinking about it now", etc. Now *that's* what I call overreacting. I think I could be happy.. actually, I *know* I've been happy just strolling around PKI without riding anything before. The atmosphere, mood, and personality of the park is so dreamy anyways and it's still one of the best escapes I can think of from the other "realities" in life. Even if we've lost the Flyers in Cinci, I still feel like the winner in getting to have such a great amusement park so close to home.

+Danny *** Edited 10/25/2004 7:16:01 PM UTC by +Danny***