Inverted w/ lapbars

kRaXLeRidAh said - "The radius of the inversion is very small - in which when the trains maneuver through the apex of the inversion, the rider's torsos are naturally tossed/traveling forward and then backward instantaneous and hard - and without anything to aid in restraining and keeping their upper bodies in a safe position, harmful spinal/back and neck injuries can occur due to this upper body "whipping" motion - and at the least, extreme discomfort to riders."

That statement makes me wonder if you've ever ridden Batman - The Ride or any looping rollercoaster for that matter. What you're talking about there would be acceleration G forces (directly in and opposite the direction of the train's motion), which are most certainly not strong enough to cause the motions you say. Never on any roller coaster in any loop have I ever had my torso "tossed... forward and then backward instantaneous and hard." It simply does not happen with anything near the abruptness or intensity that you're describing. If that were true I should be crippled from my lapbar only experiences on Greezed Lightning. I'm not thanks, B:TR could have lapbars.

- BB

For the record, I rode Anaconda today. There is no way in hell that the forces would be too great for the upper body if it only had lapbars.

Ya don't say ;)

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BBSpeed26 said:That statement makes me wonder if you've ever ridden Batman - The Ride or any looping rollercoaster for that matter. What you're talking about there would be acceleration G forces (directly in and opposite the direction of the train's motion), which are most certainly not strong enough to cause the motions you say. Never on any roller coaster in any loop have I ever had my torso "tossed... forward and then backward instantaneous and hard." It simply does not happen with anything near the abruptness or intensity that you're describing. If that were true I should be crippled from my lapbar only experiences on Greezed Lightning. I'm not thanks, B:TR could have lapbars.

- BB

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I think Ive finally found a way to describe what I have been trying to say on this thread:

First of all lateral gs are at a minimum on a vertical loop so those dont count. While I wouldnt use violent (I would say strong) forces are present in inverted corks barrel roll and especially heartlines; the change in lateral gs causes the weightlessness felt on those elements. If you need a lap bar to contrast vertical g changes that cause weightlessness then you need something to stop your side to side motion for neg lateral gs.

On wooden coasters and on mice, which Im sure have less net lateral g acceleration then those inverted elements many people complain about side bruises and sometimes back aches. Imagine the complaints you would get from lap bar inverts, since unlike those rides inverts only has a side element that stops your hips from moving (is to low to stop the spine from swinging) without the OTSRs.

As for those of you who dont understand why you would not feel it with OTSRs but would without them a little physics lesson. Force=mass(m)*acceleration(a). A=change in velocity(dv)/change in time(dt). Their for the more time your body is spent with a dv/dt opposite to that of a coaster (neg gs) the bigger dv you will have to experience (in less dt) to get back to moving with the coaster. How do you limit this? By placing a restraint, which will produce a normal force, equal and opposite to that force as close as possible to the rider, negating the other force.

Look at the head region of older OTSRs next time your in a park, they are the most worn part of all the OTSR because they experience the most force. If not for them the body would get some wicked whiplash. Why doesnt this happen on woods/mice? They anchor the body further up preventing the swinging motion and on top of that allow the body to slide as a whole a little bit too (unlike inverts that are designed to not let your butt move an inch).

Ok hopefully that clears up my arguement, fire away. *** Edited 4/5/2004 1:26:37 AM UTC by Touchdown***

I would probably not ride rides like Raptor or Wicked Twister with out OTSR because on Raptor on the inline twist or the corbra roll my head is on the restrant. With out it I'd be on the shoulder of the person sitting next to me. On Wicked Twister I'd be falling out the seat, plus the OTSR's give the rider security that something there to hold on to and secure them tightly. I can though see lapbars on suspended coasters like Iron Dragon.

Why would that be any different than the zero G rolls and cobra rolls out there with no OTSRs?

Funny thing is, if B&M's first inverted [Batman, SFGAm] opened with lap bars everyone would think its just fine.

I think gomez could be on to something - it may be all about the riders feeling secure. Perhaps the parks think that if the riders don't have that sense of security of an OTSR on an invert, they won't ride.

I ride most inverts with my hands loose on my legs and my body absolutely limp. If they're properly designed, you barely touch the OTSR - it's just blocking your view.

A ride with visuals like Montu or Nemisis would be fantastic without them.

I still say that if you are restraining against lateral force, you DON'T rely on the *head* to do that restraining. If the lateral forces on the inverted coasters were really that strong and if the shoulder bar were really restraining against lateral forces, people would be getting off the ride with neck injuries.

The way you secure riders against lateral motion is by contouring the seat back and by supplying arm rests. Which, you will notice on all B&M coasters, extend upward as they approach the backrest. For this very reason.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

That's so typical of you, Dave...bringing logic into the discussion. Sheesh!

mOOSH

Yeah. It's almost like he's trying to make sense and not just pulling things out of his butt....but what're the odds of that happening on the buzz?

No kidding :) Those long lines on all those looping lapbar only coasters are just full of people saying "it doesn't feel secure" It's a coincidence that the short lines with OTSRs turned into long lines without them ;) Also, it's a miracle anyone rides TTD....a high speed in-line roll pointing straight down....you can't have laterals like that without OTSRs! ;)

What? You're telling me there's a launched coaster with a twisting 400 feet vertical climb and fall and you only have a freakin lap bar? There's no way in HELL I'm riding that thing! ;)

No, why would you when Millennium Force is so much better? :)

-Nate

Maybe they should install "over the forehead" restraints. ;)

You know, that might be just the ticket for SLC's and Arrow loopers. Tighten that sucker down and you'd never box your ears against the OTSR. It'd be protection from the thing that's supposed to be protecting you.

Purrrrrfect example Peabody. Perfect.

In defense of those who say many of the GP claim that they feel more secure with OTSRs, I rode Hypersonic on Saturday with a friend of mine. He said he feels much more secure with OTSRs (on any coaster), and has a habit of pushing against the restraint during the ride so his upper body is firm against the seat. This of course doesn't fuel my side of the argument very well.

He did, however, ride Hypersonic twice, and enjoyed the hell out of it. Oh, and he neglected to reride Drop Zone, a ride with OTSRs. :)

Sorry, for being ze humorless german numbercruncher again: But (you guessed it) TTD has virtually no laterals on the drop.
The rotation begins at the moment you become a freefalling body. By giving your behind a slight "punch" to the side your body has minimal weight and that prevents overly strong negative gs while decending into the vertical drop.
Its actually the same as with a horizontal zero-g roll (which in fact is a +0.1 g roll). At the moment of beginning weightlessness the rotation generates a slight pressure which flips the train and the body into a "natural" spin.
Erm, I think nobody asked me about this... ;)

@Vater: Thanks for the before/after pics of FOF. It seems that you sit a lot "deeper" in the new seats and the center of rotation is now closer to the head than to the chest.

You're right about that, tricktrack. FoF's seats are in fact a bit lower than they were before the alteration, and I noticed it even more when I rode it on Saturday than I did the first time I rode it with lapbars. I think it was probably because this thread was fresh in my mind.

Going back to PKD's Anaconda for a second, I experienced more lateral force in the sidewinder (far right) and this section (the low valley where the train is) than I did through both corkscrews; and I still didn't feel like I needed a horsecollar restraint. I don't think my head even came in contact with it, except maybe in that valley.