Inverted w/ lapbars

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Vater said:
I still don't understand why there's even an argument. The Premier coasters are proof that lapbars are perfectly fine for any type of element. And as Peabody has mentioned, the Setpoint inverted coasters have lapbars that work better than OTSRs. Why are people still arguing that lapbars won't necessarily work on other coasters with these same elements? I don't understand. If I pointed to the sky and said 'it's blue,' would you argue that it's mauve?

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The nature of most coasters is that you cannot expect the riders to brace themselves through the ride as they do not know what to expect what maneuver is to happen next. Such examples given as Batman The Ride and another one - Viper at Magic Mountain. Those are two examples where a horse-collar is necessity for guest safety. Without these upper-torso restraints, some manuevers are much too violent and subtle to operate with just a lapbar and seatbelt configuration. MANY maneuvers on these rides are instantaneous and quick-paced and do not give riders a buffer period to prepare for it. And when a rider is not prepared for a snappy corkscrew maneuver or tight-radius loop, their upper torsos will be violently thrust forward (neck, spinal, hip, and even face injuries if it happens to slam into the front of the car if applicable), to the side, and back very hard against the backrest resulting in injuries.

By having the Flight of Fear coasters convert from horse collar restraints to lapbars does not justify the ability to safely operate all/most coasters with just lapbars. Premier Inc. deemed those rides safe to operate with a more limited restraint and thus agreed to the modification and that is not always the case with all other rides.

What?

What the heck is mauve anyway?

Laser has lovely loops,lunatic lateralsand Lapbars.

*** Edited 4/1/2004 7:30:41 PM UTC by CoastaPlaya***

Should I give up? I really don't know what else to say...except 'You're wrong, so nyahh nyahh neeener neeener!'

Seriously, though. The argument about riders not being able to 'prepare' or 'brace' themselves for upcoming transitions is ludicrous. Ride Legend in the back seat at night and tell me your body doesn't flail all over the damn place. There is no way you can brace yourself for upcoming transitions because there's no way you can see the upcoming transitions. Why haven't they equipped Legend with OTSRs? *** Edited 4/1/2004 8:08:41 PM UTC by Vater***

Kraxleridah is right: The reason why it works on the Premier coasters is the heartline and spline design of the track.
Since Arrows are alledgedly bent according to the "hanger principle" :) lapbars would not be a good idea for them.
Just take a look at the typical Arrow corkscrew and the curve that leads into them, you are literally sliding sideways and your body experiences laterals of ca. 2g (for a short time).

@Playa: Due to the extreme banking, the laterals on Laser are never higher than 0,6 g.
(Wow, that photo really transcends the fun of the ride!)

Again, the fact that not a single wooden coaster has a OTSR negates that argument. Ride SFA's Wild One. The helix SLAMS your body to the left, with more lateral force than I've ever felt on an Arrow.

I don't see how wooden coasters are relevant in any of this. Yes, quite a bunch of wood coasters have vicious laterals, yes they can throw you around - but none take riders upside down through complex inversions that would result in extreme discomfort and maybe even pain which then can translate into injury. This is all due to an unsupported upper torso thrown instantaneously/intensely/violently from an upright position to upside down position - and in some cases - off to the side first before going upside down, and in most looping coasters, the transitions/pull-outs and maneuvers leading in and out of these elements don't allow the safe operation of the ride without upper torso support/restraints.

Really the restraint issue is up to the park and the designer of the ride. That is really all it is. Ok so maybe insurance reasons. But definitely body mechanics wise it is better with lapbars.

I'm with Vater....I give up. This is just like all the people saying how it's impossible for a coaster to drop past 90 degrees, and refusing to listen to the facts. (and look what happened a few months later) Then the same thing happened....some people swore up and down that Chiller and Freeze would never go lapbar only, even after the FOF twins did. THey said there was too much hangtime in the tophats, and that the laterals in the in-line twist were MUCH to severe for lapbars only. Look what happened :)

And all this "bracing" business.....people don't expect to brace for the lapbar only breakneck speed corkscrew in FOF...it's in the dark. Those are some wicked laterals! That negates it all for me! *** Edited 4/1/2004 8:38:19 PM UTC by Peabody***

Exactly, Peabody. If the lapbars are properly designed, like the Premiers', it's a no-brainer. And I don't see how the forces on the 'unsupported upper torso' are any different through inversions than they are on woodies. They're still extreme lateral forces.

Edit: grammar.

*** Edited 4/1/2004 8:58:07 PM UTC by Vater***

Yeah Peabody, I suppos you are right. Especially with a B&M coaster, it would be near impossible to slip out of a seat with a lapbar. What do you think the the OSTRs really provide in terms of safety? I mean, how often does a coaster get stuck upside down on a loop, and if so, what are the point if OSTRs when they don't even touch your shoulders? When I go on a coaster, the OSTRs don't give me extra support, they just make it more uncomfortable (ie arrow, premier, vekoma)

Exactly...a coaster has gotten stuck upside down twice in history...and once of those was with lapbars ONLY! (And it had fewer injuries than the other)

this is almost as good as the "there can never be a family coaster with an inversion kinnda thread" im with vater and peabody. with the exception of a few coasters (like stand ups and maybe moonsault scramble (RIP) ) i cant see any reason why lap bars wont work...

If I rode a lap bar coaster with my hands up, how did I brace myself?

Okay, okay, if it is in fact safer, more thrilling, more comfortable, and attracts more riders as you supporters claim it does, then we should be seeing many more coasters retrofitted with the lap bars within the next couple of years. Otherwise, let's leave it up to engineering, not our personal ride experiences on coasters with a simple lap bar.

Ok this is really starting to anger me. If I may, I'll take a stab at it. Basically, kRaXLeRidAh & tricktrack... you are wrong. Allow me to restate each of your most recent arguments:

tricktrack - At the moment, you are only arguing that lapbars wouldn't work on Arrow coasters, due to them not banking around the heartline. I am assuming therefore that you agree that any ride designed around the heartline can have lapbars.

kRaXLeRidAh - You argue that the transitions on all(?) steel looping coasters forbid the use of lapbars, particularly inversions because of sudden and extreme vertical and lateral motion that would, according to you, throw around riders upper bodies in a manner painful and potentially injury inducing.

tricktrack - First of all, I would very much like to see the information that you have telling you that g's in arrow corks go as high as 2gs... I for one don't believe it. But but... scratch that, I'll assume, for the sake of your argument, that they do go this high. What other coasters have lateral gs this high? Wild Mice! Newsflash: Mice have lapbars and work just fine thanks. Predicted rebuttle: On traditional wild mice there are large straight sections before these turns to allow riders to brace for the sudden laterals of the turn. Answer: See Exterminator, indoor reverchon spinning mouse... you have no idea when or where the turns are and therefore have no ability to brace for them. Not only that but you never know the direction of the forces will be, due to the constant spinning of the car. Did I mention it's painless and an absolute blast? Also I'd like to point out that Laser is not heartlined, inverts, and also works just fine.

kRaXLeRidAh - You say that the reason lapbars work on Premier coasters is that the track is designed around the rider's heartline. This is true. However, this negates your argument that looping coasters with lapbars would "take riders upside down through complex inversions that would result in extreme discomfort and maybe even pain which then can translate into injury." Why you ask? It's simple, all modern looping coasters are designed around the rider's heartline. There is not a single modern looping roller coaster [sans exceptions such as standups and flyers] out there that would injure riders due to excessive upper body motion. Lateral Gs on modern loopers are kept extremely low to begin with... we're talking easily ~ .5 or less... and since those Gs are centered around the heartline, they're all but unnoticeable.

Basically, I don't understand how either of you, or anyone for that matter, can still be arguing that loopers need OTSRs... I just can't. I'm frustrated and unless you guys can come up with another reason that hasn't already been successfully rebuked (as I believe all of yours have), I'm done for now.

- BB

Why do the looping steel coasters out there "need" lapbars? What is the big deal with OTSR's? Are the rides really that bad with them (Arrow products excluded)?? I'm just wondering why people are so pro-lapbar only because I don't feel as though it's a major problem.

I do think there are reasons for OTSRs, however (mainly insurance-related and issues of the public not feeling secure with a lapbar-only setup on certain rides).

-Nate

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SFGAMDie HARD said:
Okay, okay, if it is in fact safer, more thrilling, more comfortable, and attracts more riders as you supporters claim it does, then we should be seeing many more coasters retrofitted with the lap bars within the next couple of years. Otherwise, let's leave it up to engineering, not our personal ride experiences on coasters with a simple lap bar.

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No...that's not true at all....why? Price. It's VERY, VERY expensive to do a retrofit form Premier, and would be even more so than that from other companies because they would start from scratch. We're lucky that we've had 6 coasters converted in the last few years, one looper built new with lapbars, and have as dozen existing lapbar only loopers in the country. For simple money reasons we probably won't be seeing much. A park needs a really good reason to do the switch (injuries and VERY bad ridership like the Premiers). For that reason there is no need to switch the B&Ms, etc.

That's another problem with most of these people's "arguments".....no one here is saying that the coasters need them. We are saying that inverts, and any sit down steel coaster can work 100% perfectly with a proper lap bar system, and in many cases can be safer than OTSRs, which are easy to escape from.

*** Edited 4/2/2004 3:32:44 AM UTC by Peabody***

Nate ~ It's not that looping coasters already out there need lapbars... it's the simple idea that it is possible to loop with lapbars in almost all cases. Not only that but in most cases lapbars would do nothing to detract from the ride experience, if anything it would add to it. True, some of the GP may find it disconcerting to be flipped upside down with only a lapbar, but it is possible, now isn't it.

-BB