Inverted w/ lapbars

Strong laterals don't argue for OTSRs at all. They only provide lateral support at the head and neck level. Obviously, you don't want to restrain your body from lateral motion at this level. Lateral forces need to be restrained by sides on the seat that restrain the major mass of the body.

For a good example of this ride most woodies. Wild One certainly has much more lateral force than any suspended or inverted that I've ever ridden.

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kRaXLeRidAh said:
I really hope you didn't truly mean that. "End to any question about the need for OTSR's on just about anything"? Horse-collar restraints are necessary on many amusement rides - it all comes down to the dynamic motions produced by the attraction and how it affects the riders. S&S rides and all free-fall style towers will never operate with just a lapbar and seatbelt restraint configuration. Neither will stand-up coasters, floorless coasters, many traditional looping coasters just because of the way the rides are designed and the way they affect riders.

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S&S rides/freefall towers - these rides produce extreme airtime, and not much else. So do most woodies, and more applicably, the S:RoS clones--all of which have only lapbars and seatbelts.

Floorless coasters - essentially, the B&M hyper trains are quite similar, and they have only lapbars. All kinds of forces--negative, positive, and lateral--are experienced on these hypers. Same with the floorless coasters. How is that different?

Standup coasters - Perhaps one of the only coaster types that require OTSRs...which is why I said they are not needed on 'just about' anything.

Traditional loopers - I assume you mean multielement coasters, as I believe Schwarzkopf proved that only lapbars are needed on strictly looping coasters. But how many multielement coasters have different elements than the Premier coasters, most of which have had their OTSRs removed? The Premiers have corkscrews, cobra rolls, top hats, and even inline twists. And some travel backwards.

I would not want to ride the following rides without a shoulder harness:

1) Vekoma Boomerang
2) DejaVu
3) X

Using only a lap-bar would be impossible on the following rides:

1) Flying Coaster
2) Stand-Up Coaster

I feel the risk of hand-chopping is not worth any benefits gained by using a lap-bar on Togo's Ultra Twister.

I think it's absolutely pointless to use a lap-bar on any kind of looping inverted coaster. I don't think riding Batman: The Ride with a lap bar would be a comfortable experience.

Any kind of Arrow or Vekoma sit-down coaster that currently uses shoulder restraints could benefit from using only a lap bar. Certain sit-down Togo rides could benefit from using only a lap bar. Flashback at SFMM could benefit from using lap bars.

A well-designed shoulder harness will restrain you at your lap and not at your collar bone. Arrow shoulder restraints are poorly designed. A flawlessly-smooth coaster that uses a shoulder restraint that restraints you at the waist is arguably safer than if it were to simply use a lap bar (however, a good argument could be made for the B&M clamshell, see below). Benefits of using a well-designed shoulder harness include further preventing passengers from trying to stand up and keeping the rider's upper-body pinned back against the seat to prevent hitting his/her head on the front of the car.

B&Ms clamshell restraint is probably the safest, most effective lap bar. I can't think of any situations where using a well-designed shoulder harness would be more beneficial than using a restraint like B&M's clamshell. Maurer's X-restraint looks pretty good too. I still don't want to see either of them on inverted coasters, though. *** Edited 3/31/2004 10:37:58 PM UTC by VolcanoTBC***

Do look at the way lapbars and OTSR's are mounted on the train. It makes more sense to have OTSR on inverted and suspended coasters because or the difficulties mounting lapbars in such situation.

Not really....look at the setpoint inverts with lapbars. Grated it's easier to do on a 2 abreast invert, but not unrealistic for a B&M

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VolcanoTBC said:

1) Vekoma Boomerang
2) DejaVu
3) X

1) Flying Coaster
2) Stand-Up Coaster

(snip)..........I think it's absolutely pointless to use a lap-bar on any kind of looping inverted coaster. I don't think riding Batman: The Ride with a lap bar would be a comfortable experience.

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I agree that those 5 coasters are the exception as they require extra body support. However, that does leave about 97% of all steel coasters lapbar friendly.

I do however disagree strongly about the invert comment. Why wouldn't an invert be perfectally comfy with a lapbar? The setpoints sure are! Look at any B&M invert....no significant negative Gs, no force thrusting you towards the OTSRs, and no laterals even close to those on a good woodie (none exceeding the inlines on the premiers either). It's 99% just butt to the seat positive Gs. Why wouldn't that be comfortable. In fact, 95% of all elements don't require restraint other than a seat for your butt and a side to keep you from sliding one way or another. The OTSR does little to nothing (other than prevent you from doing something stupid :)

Why would negative G's prevent lapbars? Seems to me that most woodies and hypers which have the most negatives are the ones with the lapbars.

Here's the thing I don't understand about this argument in general - Seems to me that aside from major axial rolling, hypers and woodies have all the forces that you'll find on any looper. Just configured slightly differently (like negatives from airtime rather than hangtime). Why wouldn't lapbars work?

Bingo!

Hmmm. Lets think. Now people are jumping out of Dueling Dragons in attempts to kill themselves with OTSRs, now with lap bars, how much easier would it it be to get out of a lap bar. We need to think about how much easier it would be to get out of these kind of rides. I understand that this I am talking about special cases, but we also have to think about LIABILITY!!!!! The park needs to take into consideration all the ways people can hurt themselves, no matter how outrageous, and since with B&M inverts it is VERY easy to raise your hands, I see no issue with the OTSRs.

You're trippin' man. I've seen tons of people slip out of OTSR, Intamin, Arrow, and B&M. Show me someone who can slip out of a properly secured good lapbar like one on the setpoint inverted, Intamin, hyper. It's impossible.

It's NOT easier to slip out of a proper lapbar...in fact, it's harder. No one could get out of the inverted Lapbar at IAAPA

How much easier? Depends on the lapbar.

Ever sit in a Premier restraint? Try getting free of it.

Or for that matter, go to Camp Snoopy and try getting free of a Gerstlauer thigh bar.

I'd trust either one on a loop.

-'Playa

That's what I mean....a PTC bar alone, Arrow Mine train, etc might not be good. I think some of the confusion with folks (like coasterMNguy) is that's what comes to mind when people think of lapbars.

I dare someone to find a person who meets the physical requirements to ride that can slip out of a properly secured (not "1 click") B&M Clamshell, Intamin Hyper, Setpoint Invert, Premier lapbar, etc. These along with a proper seat are all much more secure than an OTSR.

First of all not all freefall rides have OTSRs, the T:OTs dont, infact they dont even have lap bars anymore (just retractable seat belts which take a while to engage during freefall) and they are Disney (which despite its recent trouble is still the leader in theme park saftety given their volume).

Next time you are on a older BM invert look at how close you seat to other riders, then look on the inside of the clamshell where a normal persons head would lie, you will notice it is quite worn. The only reason it that it is like that is because BMs have a lot of laterals in the ride.

You are bound to be smacked from side to side into row mates (just think of the heartline and what forces you feel when you exit it and for that matter corks and older versions last turn before the break run). Also remember that on an invert your radius away from the track is much bigger then your average sitdown and thus you will have high laterals. No thank you, give me my comfy BM clamshells.

Um...actually, your radius is the same (which is why the elements look smaller than sitdowns) and if the radius were larger the forces would actually be smaller.

Furthermore, if you did slosh around, everyone else would be sloshing around in the exact same way because you're all on the same ride.

Yep...and there are heartlines like that with lapbars.

What's the big deal with laterals. Woodies have TONS of laterals, and I don't hear people complaining...in fact, most people rave :)

When Im on any roller coaster I want lots of changes in Gs above all else. After that however my views on wood and steel change, on a woodie I want to be roughed up a little bit, I dont want to on a steel they should be super smooth.

Steels also go at faster speeds and have greater Gs, which means a bigger force knocking you into people, counter that with the fact that anyone not sitting in row cant see the track ahead and "prepare" to be knocked around and you are bound to get a lot of angry people with whiplash ready to sue.

PS. Preparing makes a huge difference, if you tense up your muscles their is more resistance to movement and less likelyhood of a tear in the muscle, up to a certain point, being too tense though is always better then not being tense at all (this is why you cant be drunk on a roller coaster, your body doesnt tense up properaly and you could very easily break your neck).

That's ridiculous. How many thousands of people ride with their eyes closed? Do you think they're somehow able to sense what's coming and prepare for it?

Generally coasters are designed not to break your neck, drunk or otherwise.

-Nate (who couldn't care less what restraints are on B&M coasters)

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You're trippin' man. I've seen tons of people slip out of OTSR, Intamin, Arrow, and B&M.

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Totally agree with you Peabody, if people are stupid and determined enough, anything's possible. In the below case, the OTSR and seat belts failed to stop them from doing this. A properly secured lap bar would have made this stunt impossible:

http://home.surewest.net/acraig/revostand.html

*** Edited 4/1/2004 3:30:11 AM UTC by jomo***

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Am I clear on what you're saying though, that you think a lap bar wouldn't have stopped them? I'm 100% sure a properly secured bar (like a Premier, Intamin-hyper bar, etc.) would have. Those things are impossible to get out of when secure!

Sorry about that! Corrected it, hopefully it makes more sense now!