Inverted w/ lapbars
-Nate
If you are secured by a shoulder bar, how are you restrained against lateral motion? With most shoulder bars, the ONLY lateral support you get is at the sides of the *head*.
This is why Premier converted their coasters from shoulder bars to lap bars. Forget the heartline bull$#!+, those rides are built so that there are sudden lateral forces on the curve transitions which were slamming riders' heads into the shoulder bars with such force that people were getting hurt.
Those forces didn't go away when the rides changed to lap bars. What changed is that with lap bars, there's nothing for the rider's head to hit. By my own experience, I am convinced that the rides are *much* safer with the lap bars than they ever were with shoulder bars.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
BBSpeed26 said:kRaXLeRidAh - You argue that the transitions on all(?) steel looping coasters forbid the use of lapbars, particularly inversions because of sudden and extreme vertical and lateral motion that would, according to you, throw around riders upper bodies in a manner painful and potentially injury inducing.
Basically, I don't understand how either of you, or anyone for that matter, can still be arguing that loopers need OTSRs... I just can't. I'm frustrated and unless you guys can come up with another reason that hasn't already been successfully rebuked (as I believe all of yours have), I'm done for now.
- BB
No, no, no. I did NOT say that "transitions on ALL steel looping coasters forbid the use of lapbars." I said there are a handful out there that do. Which I gave two examples for this - Batman The Ride and Viper.
I just don't understand how some of you can come to a real solid conclusion in this debate. I make my case as a reason why not all steel looping coasters can safely maneuver inversions. The opposition says they proved us wrong and that they are absolutely correct on their standing.
There is no wrong or right until one of you finds a way to ride Montu or Great American Scream Machine with no upper torso harness and not experience pain or extreme discomfort during the ride. I don't have to prove that it IS possible for all looping steel rides to be converted because 90% of them out there in DO operate with shoulder harnesses - and they do for some reason or another. Most of us are not experts in this topic and we don't have any kind of inpult/insight from the actual designers and engineers that produce these rides.
Do I sense some agressiveness in your post, or is it just my foreign english skills?
Anyway, as often I cite numbers and quotes from the official Stengel Biography by Klaus Schützmannsky. An english edition should be out this spring. You better get it all so that I can stop posting ;-)
The lateral Gs of Arrow/Vekoma corkscrews are indeed covered in this book too. When Vekoma licensed the Arrow technology, they contacted Stengel for the design of their first coaster (the corkscrew with additional Bayerncurve).
Since it was just a revision of a licensed product, they didn´t change the design of the actual corkscrew element.
The corkscrew pulls indeed 2.5 lateral g on the "9 o´clock" and "3 o´clock" positions.
Another problem of the Arrow/Vekoma track: its bent around the main beam, which sits very low and exposes the riders torso, neck and head to excessive laterals.
A modern steel Wild Mouse pulls 1 g lateral! That´s not exactly excessive. Furthermore, there are no vertical gs adding to the laterals on a wild mouse. The force is linear and affects the whole body, not just parts of it. (comparable to fast caroussels and flatrides).
I have no specific figures for the Reverchon Spinners, only for other spinning coasters designed by Stengel. Those offer lateral forces of 0.8 g! I guess its safe to say that Exterminator is in the same range. Due to the spinning, those coasters offer a larger variation of combined forces (positive and negative horizontal forces in the range of +/-0.8) but hardly any verticals.
Even the problematic "Z-Force/Shockwave" has only 0.75 laterals. Duh!
I have looked far and wide but I haven´t found a(modern, inverting) coaster with a bigger lateral acceleration as Arrow Corkscrews.
Now compare the Arrow laterals to those found on rides like Mr. Freeze (0.9) and The Chiller (0.46) (note: these are the official stats. I tend to think that its a typo in Chillers case! More likely 0.96, but what do I know?)
To convert Premiers from OTSR to lapbars, the whole seating position had to be altered and ankle bars were added.
I really do think that lapbars on an Arrow would be not a good idea!
I am not quite getting what Rideman said about the bull****yness of heartline and spline. Those play a HUGE factor in reducing the laterals!
Just take a look at the difference between an Arrow/Vekoma corkscrew and the screws found on the Premiers, the B&Ms and Intamins. They have a different approach and form. This was all done to reduce the laterals. Those screws have lateral gs of 0.6 maximum!
The idea behind the spline is a constant change in acceleration, speed and jolt (change of acceleration/direction).
Now lets take a look at a coaster that was planned and built with lapbars, but received OTSR a year later: THRILLER!
When this opened in 1986 you could see that nearly the whole trainload would "fall forward" while entering the first loop. Those sustained 6.5 vertical Gs would cause even the strongest torso to bend over. Once in that position it was impossible to sit uptight until the train left the second loop.
The exit from the fourth loop was oddly shaped and led to a combination of vertical and lateral Gs. Even if the laterals didn´t exceed 1.1Gs, there were many complaints and slightly injured passengers. I was there and remember the pain!
This all led to vast researches and measurements dealing with body positions and its effect on the rider.
Thriller needed some restraint that FORCED guests to sit in an upright, straight position.
Laterals between 1.8 g and 2.7 g are since then considered tolerable on a coaster(depending on combination with vertical forces).
Old Woodies offer up to 3.6 g lateral while
Boxcars can reach a whopping 8 g!
Oh, you were right about Laser. It is rotating around the track axis, not the heartline. My mistake.
It pulls laterals up tp 1.2 g. (in that wonderful curve after the second loop).
My conclusion to all this: Thriller/Zonga and Arrow/Vekoma corkscrews need upper torso restraints.
But what about SLCs? ;-)
Also btw... If I'm sounding aggressive, it's not intentional. I'm just frustrated because I'm having difficulty getting you to see what is so clear to me.
-BB
BBSpeed26 said:
but what about your statement that "old Woodies offer up to 3.6 g lateral?" First of all that is another statistic I don't trust, but I'll pretend I do to make my argument. If old woodies operate safely pulling 3.6 laterals and using only lapbars, why couldn't an arrow cork be performed with a lapbar?I'm just frustrated because I'm having difficulty getting you to see what is so clear to me.
-BB
Dito about the frustration ;)
Woodies don´t invert! The laterals per se are no reason for OTSR. Remember the measurement about the Boxcars/Scooters exceeding up to 8 g. If you would add OTRS to them you would probably cause severy injury.
Those figures stem from measurements that were done in the late eighties by TÜV (german ride authority) in order to define margins of tolerable forces on amusement rides.
I repeat (because I write a lot and it might get confusing to follow my translated thoughts):
The laterals on a modern Mouse are relatively low because there are no additional forces. Yes, your whole body is yanked to one side and it feels harsh, but that is no problem because it is gradual and there is no jolt on certain parts of your body.
The forces would change rapidly if the banking would change or vertical forces would be added.
(Imagine the track bending to the outside: instant negative forces).
The high laterals on older woodies are a product of different forces adding up due to vibration and shuffling. If you sit in a soapbox which is slowly running over a small stone, you will feel not very much. But the faster you get, the same stone will eventually make you pop up from your seat.
That I could in theory accept, but I don't think I will ever be completely convinced until the day I ride an old arrow cork with lapbars ;) I maintain, however, that on any modernly designed (if you would like, Stengel designed) roller coaster, lapbars are most certainly a possibility, no matter what the inversion.
- BB
BBSpeed26 said:
True, there are some coasters out there that require OTSRs... however what I'm saying is that modernly designed rollercoasters, (kRaXLeRidAh, that would include Batman - The Ride) experience lateral gs so low your argument of excessive, painful upper body is simply not true. Hell, on B:TR and all other modern coasters, you rotate around your upper torso... that's called the heartline... your heartline is in your upper torso... are you seeing what I'm getting at? Tricktrack however has some good arguments. I for one have a lot of trouble believing that your typical wild mouse pulls less laterals than an arrow cork, having ridden both. Perhaps you are right, though, but what about your statement that "old Woodies offer up to 3.6 g lateral?" First of all that is another statistic I don't trust, but I'll pretend I do to make my argument. If old woodies operate safely pulling 3.6 laterals and using only lapbars, why couldn't an arrow cork be performed with a lapbar?Also btw... If I'm sounding aggressive, it's not intentional. I'm just frustrated because I'm having difficulty getting you to see what is so clear to me.
That's the thing, BBSpeed. What you see isn't actually clear. Yes, the laterals on Batman The Ride and "modernly designed rollercoasters" are not excessive, but did you consider everything on a wide spectrum? The changes of direction that do occur in other parts of rides that can induce injury, pain, and extreme discomfort to riders? Take the vertical loop of Batman The Ride and many Arrow loopers for example. The radius of the inversion is very small - in which when the trains maneuver through the apex of the inversion, the rider's torsos are naturally tossed/traveling forward and then backward instantaneous and hard - and without anything to aid in restraining and keeping their upper bodies in a safe position, harmful spinal/back and neck injuries can occur due to this upper body "whipping" motion - and at the least, extreme discomfort to riders.
BBSpeed26 said:
Just so we're clear... and if I understand you correctly, at the moment you agree that lapbars and inversions are most definately possible on almost all modern looping coasters, but are not on Arrow/Vekoma loopers...- BB
Yes!
And I reject the notion of *lateral* forces being a good reason for beating riders up with shoulder bars, as it makes more sense to provide lateral support with the sides of the seat, not with a ring around the rider's head and neck.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
If so (and I have no doubt to believe this) I just wonder why ZONGA was not retrofitted with those restraints. I think the Anton cars actually have enough room to change seating position and add bulky lapbars.
But what do you think about the Arrows? Fact is, they expose you to an additional 2 g as compared to the Premier corkscrew. That is causing severe strain on your neck (the head tends to "bounce" when it is exposed to these forces). This can not be absorbed by the sides of the seats or the car (and one person would "slide" towards the inside of the car).
And that´s the only argument I am trying to make here: I don´t think that an inverting coaster with such high laterals, which is not following the heartline or spline would be healthy without an upper body restraint.
I just wonder why ZONGA was not retrofitted with those restraints. I think the Anton cars actually have enough room to change seating position and add bulky lapbars.
From what I was told, due to the significant modifications made to Zonga to reduce the G's, there were some concerns about clearances if riders were allowed to raise their arms. The current OTSR's are designed so that it's impossible to raise your arms.
Unfortunately, now with the harnesses, Zonga is one of the most painful coasters out there. And it's not just us enthusiast that find it unpleasant. I hear over and over again the GP complaining how rough Zonga is. What could have been a great new signature coaster for SFMW is now a ride most people will only ride once. I have yet to hear one good remark about Zonga, most people say they'll never ride it again, it gave them such a bad headache from the headbanging.
I say SF should have just left it in Germany so I could hopefully one day ride what was once considered one of the best and most intense steel coasters ever built.
Fate is the path of least resistance.
It'll be both comfortable & secure at the same time so head banging will be a thing of the past & the extr security it provides would be enough to get those who think lap bars on loopers aren't as safe a reason to ride as well.
The end of the lap bar is perhaps a foot from the bottom of the bar to the top of the handle. The trick is that it is tall enough to get above the body's pivot point at the waist.
Ever ride a Huss Ranger? It's not entirely unlike the restraint pad used on that thing, in terms of size.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
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