Inverted w/ lapbars

Gotcha :) I kind of thought that's what you meant

What's really ironic is, as the article stated, Revolution originally only had a lap bar restraint. The lap bars were removed and replaced with OTSR to make the ride more safe I suppose. After seeing this pic, how in the world could park insurance companies or anyone else argue that OTSR's are more safe/secure!

No kidding. And they also turned one of the great steel coasters into one of the worst :(

Wild one pulls some pretty strong laterals,especially in the helix....thank god for padded seats & sidewalls on that thing.

I can't imagine what that helix must've been like using the original 20's style trains back when it was first built,without seat dividers or extra padding because even today the "rebuilt" helix on that thing packs quite a punch.

Thanks, Peabody, for holding up my end of the argument... :)

Something to bear in mind:

More Secure != More Safe

The key to Setpoint's lap bar, for instance, is that your feet are dangling. That lap bar isn't at all snug, but you still can't get out...your arms are not long enough to lift your knees past the edge of the bar so that you can climb out.

But the issue isn't so much making the ride escape-proof; the issue is making it safe. I wouldn't say that all reasonable lap bar designs are impossible to get out of, though some are more difficult than others. For instance, in order to get a PTC ratcheting lap bar to go down past the third notch, I have to stand up first. What does that tell you about the security of that lap bar? Although I can't get out from under the double-bar without rotating sideways in the seat.

What is more important is that on almost all rides, if you are secured by a lap bar, you aren't coming out. You'll wrap around the bar before you fall out of the train. I do think there are some rides, however, where shoulder bars are contra-indicated. Take a free-fall ride, for instance: the purpose of the restraint is to keep the rider back in the seat, with his center of gravity over the seat rather than out in open space. If I sit down on a particular free fall ride and pull the shoulder bar down until it touches my shoulders, there is a gap at the bottom of the shoulder bar big enough for me to slide though, and the restraint, while it holds me *down* in the seat, does nothing to hold me *back*.

The trick is to secure the rider by large skeletal groups, as close as possible to the center of mass. Is that so hard to understand?

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Someone mentioned the Maurer X-seats before, they are designed to work as well as regular and as a floorless seat. (check their website)
The trick is to design a seat that forces your body into a slightly embryonic position.
Basically there is not that much of a difference between a floorless and an inverted seat. So I guess that inverteds with specially designed lapbars would be possible even without ankle restraints.

Remember that Shuttle Loop accident in Belgium? People were NOT falling out of their lapbars, despite of hanging upside down for 90 minutes. (I am sure it would have been less painful to hang in an OTSR, though)

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ApolloAndy said:
Um...actually, your radius is the same (which is why the elements look smaller than sitdowns) and if the radius were larger the forces would actually be smaller.

Furthermore, if you did slosh around, everyone else would be sloshing around in the exact same way because you're all on the same ride.

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You cant tell me that the radius of your body to the track is the same in an invert as a wooden coaster. On a PTC train all that really seperates your body from the track is a wooden plank, unless your 7ft tall, your trunk doesnt get anywhere near the wheel assembly.

People with closed eyes are tensed up the whole ride.

thats not what he ment.

The radius's are exactly the same because the track is made smaller. if you want a 180degree turn on an invert or a wooden with a 20ft radius in relation to the rider then the only difference in the track would be that the wooden track would be of a higher radius and the invert of a smaller radius.

Did that make any sense? it does in my head :S lol anyway as for the tencing thing,,, are the Flight Of Fears, Space Mountain (the disney and various smaller independent ones) and even rides like X at Thorpe Park in the dark... meaning you cannot anticipate the turns anyway?

Even though you cant see much in those dark rides, you are able to see a turn right before it happens.

Your radius arguement makes sense for turns, still not sure on inversions (cobra rolls, heartlines, dive loops, corkscrews and barrel rolls).

I still don't understand why there's even an argument. The Premier coasters are proof that lapbars are perfectly fine for any type of element. And as Peabody has mentioned, the Setpoint inverted coasters have lapbars that work better than OTSRs. Why are people still arguing that lapbars won't necessarily work on other coasters with these same elements? I don't understand. If I pointed to the sky and said 'it's blue,' would you argue that it's mauve?

Vater gets it :)

It's mauve in my world ;)

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Touchdown said:

People with closed eyes are tensed up the whole ride.

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Please. How could you make such a statement? That everyone who rides with their eyes closed is "tensed up" the whole ride? Isn't it possible that at least 1% of those people who ride with their eyes closed aren't tensed up the whole ride? And how often do you hear about someone having their neck broken?

Additionally, you stated that on dark coasters you can still see turns before they happen. That's BS. I've ridden several coasters in the dark where I couldn't see the turns, especially from the back half of the train. I wasn't the slightest bit injured (nor were the millions of other people who have ridden the same rides).

What about the dummies that test new rides before they open? Are they just made to be "tense" in anticipation of tense riders? What drugs are you on?

The radius argument also makes perfect sense for inversions. You're flat out *wrong* on both accounts.

-Nate

I can see where you supporters are coming from with the safety factor. However, I think that ridership would decrease dramatically if there was no otsr in a loop. The general public (and myself) get a sense of security with the otsr. Now, I think it would be perfectly acceptable on rides like Revolution or other pretty simple rides like that.

But Batman without otsr, while I'd ride it, I'd be EXTREMELY uneasy and I'm an enthusiast. I got to say that it would attract the incredibly daring people, but for the typical general public, I think it would really be a turnoff.

---Brandon, not saying it's unsafe, but definately think it FEELS that way.

I dunno about that, Chilla had a pretty decent line, and even as a *hardcore thrillseeker*, the Boy Wonder scared the bejeezus outta me...

FELT unsafe, heck yeah....WAS unsafe, not a chance...;)

This reminds me of when people were saying that no coaster could have a drop greater than 90 degrees, and even if it was possible it would scare too many people. Now look what happened.... :) But, in this case, it's been done, proven safer, and people ride. What mroe could you ask for. :)

I never ask for mroe ;)

Obviously the GP feels that lap bars are safe on most loopers....just look at how long the lines for FOF or JJ have been in the past few years since the switch for proof of this.

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tricktrack said:
(I am sure it would have been less painful to hang in an OTSR, though)

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I'm not so sure about that. Which would you rather have all your weight pressing against -- your thighbones (some of the strongest bones in your body), or your collarbones (among the weakest, most easily broken, and PAINFUL to break bones in your body).

I know where I'd rather my weight be supported...

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jomo said:
What's really ironic is, as the article stated, Revolution originally only had a lap bar restraint. The lap bars were removed and replaced with OTSR to make the ride more safe I suppose. After seeing this pic, how in the world could park insurance companies or anyone else argue that OTSR's are more safe/secure!

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Nah uh. The horse collar restraints didn't replace the lapbars. The lapbars are still there on the ride. The horse collars were added as a redundant restraint because of insurance issues.