Flying Turns Update

Yeah, I don't 'get' this one.

I mean, I don't have to. They'll be just fine without me. I don't matter.

But I don't get the interest in this ride. I don't get the time and effort the park put into this ride. I don't get what I'm supposed to find interesting about it after watching that POV.

I'm interested in the ride because it's something that I haven't experienced before. Additionally, this whole project has clearly been a challenge, and I want to see it end with success.

As for the effort that the park has put into the ride, I'd guess a mix of two primary reasons. Judging by the ride collection and general park concept, Dick Knoebel (or the Knoebel family) is interested in conserving / recreating some classic ride experiences likely based on nostalgia (several of the park's projects seemed like a mix of hobby).

Secondly, the park knows it can't compete with the latest multi-million dollar coasters. They've found their niche, and it appears to be working. No other park is going to have a classic Flying Turns ride.

Meh. The ride just seems like there should be more to it. It's like, 80% lift hill with a helix and a few back and forth turns. Count me in the "not impressed" camp. I also think I've lost a good deal of interest in this since it's going on, what, 8 years?

Please don't de-friend me, Kozmo.

Jeph said:

No other park is going to have a classic Flying Turns ride.

After seeing the time this took and potentially the end result, I think there's a reason for that fact.

Kosmo HATES Gonch.

I think some of you may be underestimating that nostalgia can be very good business . Remember the area that KG is located in, and that their "local competition" amusement-wise is Hershey, with a budget that KG can't touch. What they do, and do well, is offer a completely different mix than Hershey does...and it seems to work well.

In most other areas, we might say "they were a local park that didn't stay up with the times, and went out of business after a big themer entered their area and put them out of business." How many PA and OH parks have gone under when they couldn't offer what the CFs, SFs, PPs could?

I'm not saying Knoebels is perfect, I'm saying they've managed to carve out a more-than-sustainable niche and remain family-owned in an era when very few parks have done so without the backing of a HerCo, SF, or even PR. IB and Kennywood were both sold off in the past decade...even LC is a "chain" park now. And while I loved Denver's Lakeside (arguably the knoebels of the West), that park is nowhere near as successful as KG.

kpjb said:

Kosmo HATES Gonch.

There's sort of some truth to that. It wasn't from Kosmo himself...but close enough. And I don't think it went as far as actual hate, but...

I've never mentioned it publicly, but 7 years ago I did get an email (a friendly enough one) questioning this post I made. Specifically in regards to my opinion on Flying Turns at the time - which honestly hasn't changed much since then. (see the 3rd quote down in my post)

At least I'm consistent. :)

Added - while I was typing this Gator posted and, interestingly enough, the post/thread I linked to also touches on the idea of nostalgia as a selling point. Everything old is new again.

I have to say, regardless of your thoughts on the ride, the responses from whoever is running their FB page are quite good:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153098423175551&id=20...10550&_rdr

I've said this before, probably somewhere in this very thread, but I'll say it again.

I believe in the nostalgic value of attractions like this. If I ran a park I'd make sure that I would include a nice mix of old and new. I think we're all fortunate that Knoebel's has the money, space, patience, and vision to maintain older rides, restore decrepit rides in danger of disappearing, and attempt to reproduce rides that no longer exist. I've enjoyed every visit I've ever made there, and what they do is extremely valuable in my book.

However. This project turned into a fool's errand a long time ago. I'm not sure why the push, no matter how slow, to get this ride operating. Is it that they have such conviction and dedication that they continue on in spite of 7 (8?) years of obstacles? Do they feel backed into a corner and, by damn, they're gonna see this thing through even if it kills em just to save face? Is someone making them do it? Ok, ridiculous I know, but if it had been me I woulda cut my losses years ago and hoped the awaiting enthusiast community would forgive me. And we would have.

And don't get me wrong. There's nobody, NObody that would like to see an authentic, operating Flying Turns again more than me. But from what I know and see of this project, it's already disappointing. Having ridden one of the originals I can say that this ride doesn't exactly capture the feel and the thrill that they hope to reproduce. I get that changes needed to be made to comply with current safety regulations, and the train needed to be up to code, and it needs a good safe blocking system, and it was hard to get right, and blah blah blah. But for a ride that will turn out to be, and I promise you, not that great anyway, it's really more like a great big "why bother?". I get sick of hearing over and over "oh, don't worry, Knoebel's is so wonderful that if anybody can do it, they can!" As much as I love and admire the park, by now I'm thinking maybe they can't. Sorry.

I sincerely hope after my first ride (if I'm not too old to get on), that I eat my hat for what I've said here.

I think this looks cool. I can take or leave the Mack bobsleds but the Intamin ones are great fun and this certainly looks to be similar.

Hats off to the park for trying something a bit different and not just sticking a pin in the Zamperla catalog when picking an addition.

RCMAC said:

As much as I love and admire the park, by now I'm thinking maybe they can't. Sorry.

The reason this thread is "hot" right now is because there is significant optimism coming out of Elysburg. The NSA (Nostalgic Suckers Association) is reporting quite a bit of chatter suggesting an imminent threat of ride opening.

As to "they should have given up a while ago" - I guess the commitment to biulding the ride was stronger than business sense might have dictated. But then again, there was no likely good "jumping off point" since the very beginning of the project. Once the ride was constructed (other than the location of the transfer track), it's been all about the trains. No one is thrilled at how long that took, but I really do believe it'll be running by PPP.

There's also a marginal cost vs. opportunity cost thing going on. If you have 95% of a ride and you're "pretty sure" you just need another 5% to get it open, you'd be a fool to scrap the whole thing. Of course, by the 7th time you're "pretty sure," you might want to look at the source of your numbers and scale back your optimism, but at each decision point, continuing to work on it is the correct choice.

The question that no one has answered is how much are they spending on Flying turns.

If they are spending $5m (and remember this is wood not fabricated steel) they would have spent as much as CF spent on a Windseeker--or Shoot-The-Rapids.

Even at $10m it would be $15m less than Gatekeeper or I305.

Lord Gonchar said:

...I don't get the interest in this ride. I don't get the time and effort the park put into this ride. I don't get what I'm supposed to find interesting about it after watching that POV.

I think the thing to 'get' here is that Fetterman and co., as fans of the classic art of coaster building, believe that Turns are a unique and beautiful 'lost art'. He said himself back on the first page of this thread, in 2006, that they didn't set out to create the craziest possible version of the Turns (specifically mentioning that trying to recreate Euclid's version would've been too risky due to its envelope pushing design.) They set out to rediscover a lost art and recreate a lost experience. They could do it more cheaply than anyone else in the world (due to their access to lumber, design skill, and carpentry skill) and decided it would be 'fun' to have one, just like any other collector/restorer of nostalgic items who rebuilds something like an old car not because it's the fastest or shiniest, but because it is a tiny piece of something meaningful that has since gone away.

That being said, I think the POV looks amazing. Sure, there's probably a more exciting, wilder design that could be attempted someday, but this ride looks totally solid and out of control fun. Can't wait.

So it's exactly like when I don't care that some guy is driving a '55 something or other around on Sunday afternoons because he likes old cars.

It is EXACTLY like that. But I'll bet you a dollar you enjoy the ride if you ever end up on it.

Maybe. Unless it's a Ford. I'm more of a Chevy guy.

Oh, you mean the coaster!?

Sure. I don't doubt it either. I like all kinds of silly stuff.

But I can't imagine traveling out of my way to sample their labor of love and I can't imagine others who don't share that same love/interest doing it either. And I can't imagine in a million years it opening the door to "a more exciting, wilder design that could be attempted someday..."

Like I said earlier, there's a reason these disappeared and there's a reason no one outside of some guys in the PA woods with an unusually high interest in this sort of thing are taking the better part of a decade to build one.

They should have just built it out of pvc or vinyl or whatever like intamin did. You know, if they wanted a bobsled coaster so bad.

Better yet, they should have installed one of these synced to Flying Turns video for the ultimate authentic experience.

Gonch stopped just shortly of saying it, but I think the ride speaks to people who already love the place. For everyone else, it's probably just a cute anecdote. It preaches to the choir.