CF Gutting KI's atmosphere just like CP
So what exactly is a "charming" park? Do people not have fun at these non-charming parks? That's not a question for Chuck, because I get the sense he doesn't have fun anywhere.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Jeff Young said:
I do have a problem with hypocrisy though.
There's never going to be any major park decision that will be met by 100% agreement among enthusiasts. That's not hypocrisy, that's just what happens when you have a group made up of thousands of people with wildly varying opinions.
The bright paint and concrete expanses, the noise, the lights, the people - that's atmosphere!
Seriously.
That's the atmosphere I'm after when I go to the park. If I want trees and "charm" (whatever that is - it seems to also mean "trees") or whatever, I'd be more inclined to walk through the woods or a park or something like that.
Call me crazy but the large midways, the big open spaces, the crowds, the over the top sights and sounds - that defines the amusement park experience. That's what I'm after!
I doubt the folks at Luna Park or Steeplechase complained about the lack of trees back in the day. ;)
Example. Paddlewheel Excursions. You rode it back in the 80's felt like you were on some Mark Twain trip through the rivers and brush. NOW: A NICE VIEW Of all the pretty coasters with NOISE SO LOUD you can't hear the funny jokes.
EXAMPLE, CP's frontier town: A place you could go eat corn on the cob right off the grill. A place away from the midway. A area that where you could kick back a bit. Study history, animals, Craftsmanship. Now you got two giant coasters and a shoot the shoots that could have been put anywhere.
Don't get me wrong, Parks gotta add things to keep interest, I don't have to like the way they go about it.
EXAMPLE, BEAST, RAVEN, LEGEND and many other rides took great care and thought into their bulding process to keep as much as WHAT THEY HAD intact. CFs latest ploy is to just gut it and start over.
I'll agree Paramount was a morphadited half assed version of a UNIVERSAL and they started it. ACTION ZONE is a joke compared to the charm the area once had and IJ was the last straw.
I look to get AWAY FROM the GLITZ, BUZZ, HYPE and Brightness of the every day busy body world. Instead they make the park just like it.
I walk in Busch parks and VOILA, IM NOT IN FLORIDA ANYMORE! I walk in Dollywood, VOILA, IM taken back to a time when things were simple and people were friendly.
Rides aint even half the ATMOPHERE or EXPERIENCE of a park to me.
Thats what you DON'T GET!
I go to be thrilled, I go to be entertained and I go TO GET AWAY FROM IT ALL.
Chuck, taking a stress tab and really is all the blatant attacks necessary? Its a view, Not a DEMAND or DICTATORSHIP. you have every right to dissagree though.
matt. said:That's not hypocrisy, that's just what happens when you have a group made up of thousands of people with wildly varying opinions.
Matt, it is hypocrisy when the same people do all the complaining.
Chuck, you know, there certainly is quite a large amount of (what you call) "atmoshphere" around Maverick. Give it a little time to grow, and it will be beautiful. Why not take out the trees and have a clean slate to work on - and then add the trees and other things back in once you've got the ride built - and you're totally sure about clearances around the ride.
That seems to make good construction sense to me.
Jeff Young said:
Matt, it is hypocrisy when the same people do all the complaining.
Agreed, but your argument will only make sense (and in turn, perhaps convince me and others reading) when you actually address those people as opposed to addressing "enthusiasts" as a whole, which is what it sounded like when I read it, sorry 'bout that.
Still, I don't think it is hypocritical at all to say "I'd like a new coaster" and then when they build a new coaster say "No, this is wrong" or "I don't like the way they're going about X,Y,Z." It's not as if wanting a new coaster should give the park carte blanch if we think it's distasteful or unappealing to us personally.
*shrug*
Charles Nungester said:
You guys never get it and probably never will, Perfectly content to pay 50 bucks to walk into a parking lot carnival with a bunch of under maintained rides and lack of creativity.
Funny. I think the same thing about the "charm and atmosphere" people - just change $50 to $30 and parking lot to rural.
Again, I'm having a problem with leaving trees up near a ride being equal to creativity.
EXAMPLE, BEAST, RAVEN, LEGEND and many other rides took great care and thought into their bulding process to keep as much as WHAT THEY HAD intact. CFs latest ploy is to just gut it and start over.
I think you're missing the point. This is what CF does. It's the product they deliver. They put in big midways, large rides, lights, signs, sensory overload.
It's not a mistake - it's the point. (pun not intended)
Rides aint even half the ATMOPHERE or EXPERIENCE of a park to me.Thats what you DON'T GET!
Funny again, because I would say the exact same thing. Rides are a small part of the overall experience.
Which is why it takes more than trees or fake log cabins to amuse me.
I go to be thrilled, I go to be entertained and I go TO GET AWAY FROM IT ALL.
Uncanny. I'd have said the same thing yet again.
I look to get AWAY FROM the GLITZ, BUZZ, HYPE and Brightness of the every day busy body world. Instead they make the park just like it.
Aww, we finally get to disagree. I look to get AWAY FROM the BOREDOM, MONOTONY, REPETITION and Mundaneness of the everyday world.
These parks deliver a reality turned up to 11. It's supposed to be exciting and crazy and over the top.
I find it thrilling, entertaining and escapist in nature.
I go to be thrilled, I go to be entertained and I go TO GET AWAY FROM IT ALL.
Me too, my man, me too. :)
See Skyhawk as an example. That's a cute little addition that I thought would totally hose Frontiertown's already tenuous thematic feel, but it worked out pretty well in my opinion. Maverick isn't half-bad in the "fits into the area" department, either---both in re-using existing structures as well as blending in the new ones. It looks like it's always been there.
And Dragster is flat-out awesome as a "the rides are the theme" installation. The grandstand was a stroke of genius, and it draws surprisingly well. More than once, my kids (who don't ride it) and I have kicked back on the stands, and just watched launches for a good half-hour as a little mini-break.
Lord Gonchar said:
That's a great point, matt.
Feel free to make that your new signature. ;) *** Edited 3/27/2008 11:01:26 PM UTC by matt.***
Thrilling, but lacking in charm.
I understand lamenting the loss of "theme" in "theme parks." The theming is what makes them more than just pretty, well-run carnivals. But sometimes all people want is a pretty, well-run carnival.
Obviously, Cedar Point has no problem bringing people through the gates, despite the general lack of theming. But don't confuse the Six Flags and Cedar Fair parks for what they are: regional parks. They aren't theme parks, even if every one of them started out that way. They're part of larger chains now, and with that consolidation goes a lot of the individuality and charm. In return, you get bigger and more impressive rides.
There are plenty of parks in this country where you can still find theming and a charming atmosphere. Don't fault Cedar Fair and Six Flags for filling their niche. Not everyone can be Disney.
I guess CP lost its charm in the 1920s when they built Cyclone in that exact spot.
Jeff Young said:Why not take out the trees and have a clean slate to work on - and then add the trees and other things back in once you've got the ride built - and you're totally sure about clearances around the ride.That seems to make good construction sense to me.
Didn't make much sense to Will K. when Voyage was being built. If my money were on the line, I'd probably be sorely tempted to bulldoze and start with clear, flat land (like if I were building an SLC, hehe). But there is something to be said for having mature large trees around. They add a surprising amount to the atmosphere of the place, above and beyond the fact that they clean the air, provide shade, and are nice to look at.
Can't even *imagine* BGW/E denuded of its luscious tree-cover...
You still have Zoidberg.... You ALL have Zoidberg! (V) (;,,;) (V)
Charles Nungester said:
EXAMPLE, CP's frontier town: A place you could go eat corn on the cob right off the grill. A place away from the midway. A area that where you could kick back a bit. Study history, animals, Craftsmanship. Now you got two giant coasters and a shoot the shoots that could have been put anywhere.
Where else would they have put Millennium Force? Its a 300 foot ride! Also, I think the location of the chutes ride is awesome. Walk by there on a warm day and watch kids playing on the bridge and walking off smiling. Thats atmosphere.
Charles Nungester said:EXAMPLE, BEAST, RAVEN, LEGEND and many other rides took great care and thought into their bulding process to keep as much as WHAT THEY HAD intact. CFs latest ploy is to just gut it and start over.
This is true, but don't the "leaked" plans for the hyper show it going back into the woods?
Charles Nungester said:I walk in Busch parks and VOILA, IM NOT IN FLORIDA ANYMORE! I walk in Dollywood, VOILA, IM taken back to a time when things were simple and people were friendly.
Those are theme parks, if you like theme parks go to theme parks and stop complaining when other parks aren't more like them.
Your trying to shoehorn Cedar Fair parks into this vision of what YOU want. Cedar Point is NOT Busch Gardens and I like it that way, just like I love Busch Gardens for what they offer over Cedar Point.
The Big Boring Box is a much more hideous sin.
*** Edited 3/27/2008 9:10:47 PM UTC by Brian Noble***
I gotta agree with my namesake: "good" parks - the parks I enjoy most - offer elements of both.
Holiday World has it's nice woody areas but look at Thanksgiving: lacking in shade...for the time being. Give it a year or two and those trees will have filled in.
Indiana Beach - hardly any trees at all within the park but I doubt you'd find someone who says the park lacks charm and atmostphere.
Dollywood - lots of trees and atmosphere...until you get to Thunderhead Gap where the woody, Mystery Mine, and the new water ride is. That area is completely gutted with nary a tree in sight there...for the time being.
Knotts - for all the critics who say the park is a concrete jungle you have to give CF credit for keeping Ghost Town virtually intact...especially considering 1) how landlocked the park is, and B) the continued need to add new attractions in competitive market with five other major theme parks.
I could go on but you all get the point.
Brian Noble said:
You know, as much as I like to complain about CP's "the rides are the theme" approach, sometimes it's not so bad.
Why not go that route to differentiate from the other chains?
I could give a rat's a$$ about theming if a park insn't completely commited to it. I don't need to fanasize about being in some exotic part of the universe when I'm at an amusement park I want to be at an AMUSEMENT PARK!
So KI is ripping up an area that is not currently in use and surrounded by other attractions. Consider it "urban renewal" development. Preserve the other 100 acres that haven't been violated yet.
Thanks for another great season, VF!
There must be balance in the force!
Does anybody remember the ivy-covered tunnel that ran between Hannah-Barbera land and Rivertown? That was a wonderful, shady, cool, relaxing stroll between two great themed areas. Almost nobody does that sort of thing anymore, and more's the pity.
Action Zone predates Cedar Fair's presence by a decade or so. But it is the most Cedar Fair-ish, an abominable stretch of desolate pavement unleavened by anything green or pleasant. Consequently, it is the area that will require the least attention by CF in ensuing years. Mark my words.
I used to think all the scuttlebutt about Cedar Fair destroying parks by overbuilding and not giving attention to charm and atmosphere (beside Gonch's blasting, garish kind) was overblown. Until I went to Dorney and Knotts. It's so interesting how obvious it is in both parks which areas predate Cedar Fair, and how much nicer and more interesting and relaxing those areas are over later "improvements".
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