Cedar Point's Blog is teasing us!

Thom25, let's talk about weak logic, shall we.

First, just go to CP's site and there are several hotels that can get well above $150/night. Nice try to throw in the on-site part. I guess they don't care how Castaway Bay does.

Secondly, how do you know how much it would cost for a 500 foot coaster? All we have to go on is TTD and KK for anything over 400 feet. As mentioned before in this thread, a 500 footer would have to be different from TTD unless they want to make a rather new coaster irrelevant. Anthing other than a launch to those heights would be much more expensive then a rocket. Besides, $50 million was an arbitrary number used to show that CP could get much more for their money and that it might be a wiser business decision to offer something new for everybody.

Third, sure MF and Magnum were some of the best decisions that CP has made, BUT they came over a decade apart. Not every decision has to be the best one ever and not all of the best decisions have to be the biggest thing yet.

Forget about TTD! What? That coaster has everything to do with this thread. The fact that it does exist makes it more unlikely that something similar/bigger is in the works. The troubles it's had has loads to do with what would be a good/bad business decision for their next star attraction (if it is even going to be something that big). Frankly, if TTD didn't exist at CP I'd probably be on your side in this debate, but it does exist.

As just mentioned, families are the ones who tend to spend more money on the parks and on their accomodations while visiting the area. Sure they have teens, but a family needs something that appeals to each and every one of them. 500 foot coasters only cater to smaller segments of the park going public.

I'll even go so far as to say that they do care who stays at their hotels. They want people who respect their property and don't cause problems.

- The statements above are solely my opinion. I apologize if my opinion reflects the opinions of someone better than myself who might have shared their similar opinion before me. :)

*** Edited 3/7/2006 3:35:21 AM UTC by Incidentalist***

Incidentalist, there is no reasoning with you (which is fine - lol). I said "there isn't a hotel on-site for $150," which in context means less than $150. My point was all/most of CP's room are OVER $150/night. You are right about my guess, yours is as good as mine. I have no clue what time has to do with a good decision. If I make a great decision today, do I have to wait 10 years before I can make another? (arg).

TTD has nothing to do with this thread or new ride. Yes, it's 420 feet, so what! We never would have gotten MF with that logic, since Magnum is 200 feet. Furthermore, I can say with pretty high certainty, unlike Magnum and MF - Maverick will be nothing like TTD. Whatever Maverick is, it won't have a launch.

500 foot coasters cater to the same crowd that cares about 310 foot coasters (MF) and 205 foot coasters (Magnum). My money is on that or a dueling flyer - but strongly leaning towards a 500/600 footer.

Here's why timing and what already exists matters.

People had gotten used to the 200 ft. coasters by the time MF was built. They were popping up all over the place and CP could completely blow them away with a 300 footer. Plus it had elements that were impossible to perform back in Magnum's day.

TTD came along with a new twist. The launch. CP gave people a taste of launched coasters with WT, but now they were going to show us what could really be done. Add in the vertical elements and it was something new, and quite frankly it still is new.

Most people aren't 'used' to 400 footers at this point. Most people don't need the additional rush that an even taller coaster would provide. There are only two in the whole world. There isn't a need for anything bigger at CP at this point.

True that there wasn't a need for anything bigger than MF when TTD was built, but it offered something different. What are they going to offer that is different with a 500 footer other than height?

That's my rationale and I still think it's stronger than "they should build a bigger one because CP likes the "est" coasters", or "because (insert name here) hasn't said it won't happen means it probably will happen", or "it's great PR."

Here's where we part ways (good post btw). CP doesn't care about "most people" they care about their target audience, who over the last 4 years have experienced 400 feet. Furthermore, CP is known as America's Roller Coast - no other park in the country is as focused on coasters. And finally, on both TTD and KK you are over the top before you even realize how high you are. I can not image a cable lift 200-300 feet taller and longer than MF. That in and of itself will be a HUGE thrill for many (yes, like me - lol), nevermind the view as you crest the hill!

Come on now, we all know that SFMM is more focused on coasters. They haven't added anything major but coasters since who knows when. ;)

At least CP knows they need a few good flats and something for the kiddies to do.

I'll just leave it with this. If you need more of a rush than TTD, may I suggest sky diving or bungy jumping. I highly recommend both.

I also believe CP's management is very smart, and because I think they are very smart, I believe they know that building a larger coaster than TTD right now would be a poor business decision. We're talking summer 2005 when the decision was made AND by the way, KK was down for several months after only operating successfully on and off for several weeks. Wow, I'm sure that got CP's management excited to go higher, and with the same company. Then they looked out the window, oh, Dragster's down again. We have to close Wicked Twister for two weeks, seat belts are p-oing the public on their most popular ride in the park, Millennium Force. TTD is still very new, very fresh and problematic. Intamin is the only company anyone can fathom doing something bigger, S&S is possible but CP would not sign off on a 500 foot thrust air when Dodonpa is their largest at around 200 something. With all of Intamin's issues, I would even think their engineers and Sandor and company might say, hey, let's wait till we perfect our system first. We've got enough problems. Whatever happened to "normal" progression in ride evolution as in the 80's and 90's? Add a loop there, a few mph here, 10-15 feet in height here. We got arrogant, technology, we can build anything. Well, we can't. Once again, 500 and 600 foot coasters could be built right now. However, there is no evidence in this world that tells me that they could operate every 30-60 seconds, for 10-12 hours a day straight, for 3-4 months 7 days a week. That is why CP, this time around, will not spend $35+ million for that missing guarantee. Someday, but not now. They lost the height record in '94, waited till 2000 to break it again, SFGA built another headache, why would they be so foolish just for a record, when as of last June, they still had all the record signs up on TTD anyway. Unless you read the paper on one day in May last year or saw a Discovery show, average Joe does not even know about Kingda Ka nor does it make TTD any less thrilling or spectacular. CP knows this and gosh darn it, can we just find out what the darn ride is, it's not like we're going to tell anybody. We'll just be in here bickering amongst ourselves after the fact! We won't have time. *** Edited 3/7/2006 5:28:04 AM UTC by Mantis2***

Preface: I do not have a thought I wish to share about what is really being constructed. The following is just another spin on how cost may not be an issue on this project given historical occurances.

Cost is not of discussion as no one really knows what a 500+ ft coaster would cost if purchased from Intamin. Don't forget Arrows bargain they dealt Kings Island after "The Bat". Intamin may have put a deal on the table that was to good to pass up and would be worth the risk depending on provable reliability. Companies have been know to compensate for mistakes by taking huge loses just to stay in the loop. If this is Kenzels going away party it has been in the works since TTD. If Cedar Fair and Intamin were planning during the TTD problems the bargaining would have fallen in Cedar Fairs lap and Intamin would have had to really come down in cost to stay in consideration for the grand Kenzel going away gala.

My personal opinion . . . This will be a gigantic cryogenic chamber for Kenzel to be kept in. He will then be unfrozen every decade to build the tallest and fastest coaster of the time. It must be, look through the tarp, it's obvious!

http://www.pointimage.net/features/2007Attraction/

There ARE people in the world, mostly non-enthusiasts, who will actually step back from a ride and say they don't want to ride it, you guys know. ;)

I can imagine A LOT of people looking at something 500 feet tall and just not wanting to go on it because it makes them want to drop matter. Everything that CP has done over the last couple years, to me, has appeared to make the park more family-oriented, and I think they have an unprecedented opportunity to rework this area of the park to have a little something for everyone.

Funniest.

Thread.

EVAH! ;)

Thanks for the laughs, everyone!

I personally think Magnum, Raptor, Millennium Force and TTD will be remembered as Kinzel's achievements, no more or less than the new one. And he's not stupid either, he knows about his worth over time and not just one last ride. I'm sure he wants to sit in retirement in June of 2008 reading the paper about his 500 foot behemoth, "Kinzel - The Ride," has been shut down for an undisclosed amount of time while they order a new part from Europe. A 230 foot B&M floorless with 8 inversions and 4500+ feet long sounds like a pretty great ride to me.....and to the GP. I'm not saying that's what it is, I'm just throwing out an example. And now seeing Tatsu, I could now buy the dueling flyers rumors. CP and the boys have gone to B&M to deliver, then Kinzel can go to the park ANYTIME during retirement and see his "crowning achievement" operate.

Mamoosh, first, you're welcome. Second, I've thought about this, by about this time, some of the employees of these parks and in this case CP, must be howling at how much time we all have put into this and I'll laugh at myself here too. But there's fanatics for everything, better us here than those poor Michael Jackson supporters. I really think they have issues crying outside his house having vigils when the man looks like an alien. I will quietly exit this board if someone speaks of having a vigil at the bottom of a threatened coaster. *** Edited 3/7/2006 5:55:13 AM UTC by Mantis2***

I don't see Kinzel leaving, being behind in the coaster count and hight/speed records. In 2007 I see ""Americas Roller Coast"" getting 2 coasters, or a Mammoth of a ride. If you build it they will come. More fuel to the fire. lol :) *** Edited 3/8/2006 9:00:27 PM UTC by steelraptor***

Enthusiasts will come, anyways. A lot of people will never have heard about it. *** Edited 3/7/2006 7:04:48 AM UTC by MForce2k***

SteelRaptor. The idea that "Build it and they will come" is a horrible idea. And it was proven that in the amusement industry that isn't what attracts guest. Case and point? Six Flags!

How much money have they wasted on attractions that had no major long term effect on the atendence? This is why they are major debt.

Cedar Fair on the other hand, doesn't only rely on this method. They invest smartly, and I honestly don't think that a 500 foot coaster would be a smart idea considering their 400 foot coaster can't even operate a whole season without major breakdown. Once this can be accomplished, feel free to build a 500'. But at this current time, it doesn't seem 'smart' to do so.

I think a family addition is on the horizion. Coaster? Prehaps... yet again, Prehaps not. It's hard to say. And only time can tell. *** Edited 3/7/2006 8:10:11 AM UTC by Keith2005***

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Impulse-ive said:
...Nitro [shut up LG!])...

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I must possess some sort of serious sixth sense. Even in the sea of retardedness that is this thread, I managed to hone in on that comment much like an eagle with tunnel vision focused on it's rabbity little rodent prey a mile below.

And while basking in the glow of my keen discovery, I find myself much too overjoyed to make some second-rate Nyquil joke.

Bittersweet.

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Mamoosh said:

Thanks for the laughs, everyone!

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This is getting good, but I recall a thread just before Holiday World was about to announce a few years ago. Anyway, there were a couple of people predicting deuling B&M inverts or even a clone of Deuling Dragons. Mind you, this was the year they added Halloswings (and Liberty Launch, yes? That was the same year? Anyhoo, you get my point.)

I really get tired of hearing people comparing the problems CP has had with Dragster to problems with a ride with a lift.

Obviously a ride that is launched 120 mph and 420 feet in the air will have a considerable amount of more pressure than a ride with a traditional type of hill, or even LIM system.

I guarantee a ride like dragster would have problems being launched 310 feet at 90 mph or whatever it would take to get it up the hill.

and face it, guests care about speed and height. They come to cedarpoint because of MF and Dragster, and ride raptor, mantis, and the other coasters when they get here. I've never once heard a non enthusiest say they were going to CP to ride mantis and raptor.

and plus, these 'awesome" layout rides don't get them national coverage in papers and in magazines. These air machines like Maggie, MF, and Dragster did (despite problems with it).

I also won't go out and say they are going to get a 500 foot coaster. A coaster of this size would draw a large crowd to the park of course, yet I am also skeptical. Whatever it is they are getting will be one heck of a ride (note I said ride).

I don't know, But I think I might be on to something. Ok, THey are re-using the flumes station right? The stairwell used to come down in the middle of the round table with the logs entering on one side and exiting the other.

I really have no idea what the attraction may be but could to stations fit in there? I mean a dueling type coaster or something.

Chuck, who thinks there might be a record such as worlds longest dueling coaster or somthing but not 5,6,7 hundred feet.

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PsychoMonkey61 said:

I've never once heard a non enthusiest say they were going to CP to ride mantis and raptor.

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Then it's a good thing the park had Magnum to get people into the gates in the time between it and MF. Maybe CP should just tear down some of their other coasters since people don't seem to care about them. :)

Moosh, I hope you're laughing with me and not at me as I'm feeling extremely fragile right now. ;)

Incidentalist - playing the part of instigator at a forum near you

I take full responsibility for starting this thread. It was my idea and nobody elses! I'm not sure I know what the heck anybody is talking about in this thread anymore but that was my idea too.

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PsychoMonkey61 said:

and face it, guests care about speed and height.

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Face it, there are plenty of parks out there that are highly succesful without a single coaster over 200 feet tall. Actually, there are plenty of very succesful parks out there that don't have a single coaster over 100 feet tall.

And BTW, Raptor and Mantis got tons of media coverage and (yes) national attention when they both first opened.