Can Cp get another woodie?

Don't put too much faith in raw ridership numbers - they are quite meaningless. They would need to be normalized in a way which factors in the following:

1) What is the realistic maximum throughput of the ride, allowing for real-world operations & down time? (If ride A can handle 2 mil per year and ride B 1 mil per year - and both have a ridership of 800,000 - then ride B is MUCH more attractive to riders.)

2) What is the average queue time? (If ride A and B both have a ridership of 1 mil, but ride A waits are 3 hours and ride B waits are 15 minutes - guess what? Ride A is MUCH more attractive to riders.)

3) Periods of park saturation would need to be completely removed from the stats. (As the park gets more crowded, every ride approaches capacity. I call this "Postman" syndrome - the only reason anybody saw the movie "Postman" at all is that they were shut out of "Titanic" next door.)

4) Likewise, periods when crowds are very light should be weighted more heavily. (This is when people are truly choosing which rides they want to get on.)

None of which makes MS popular.

But fine--let's play your game for 30 seconds, shall we?

- MS has three 28 passenger trains, WT has one 32 passenger train. It's obviously trumped for capacity. Imaginary, real, whatever you wanna call it.

- WT is near the dazzling Giant Wheel, the crowd-sucking DT and there's no underestimating the spillover from Kiddy Kingdom. So let's sink the postmen in the Bay, shall we?

-WT has a taller height requirement, ruling out some riders who can still board MS

Dead park area, lower capacity, smaller riding audience--still outdraws MS. Of course, the same could be said of a two-train Mantis with a 54" minimum height and an entrance that isn't the easiest to find..but who's checking?

Thanks for playing. Next!

-CO

*** Edited 6/30/2005 10:00:29 PM UTC by CoastaPlaya***

So, are you saying that Mean Streak's low numbers are because of low capacity?

Why is it that so many seats go empty?

Oh, and there are no lines for MS (well, rarely are there any).

Rider comments I hear after an average ride:
"That was really rough."
"That sucked."
"Well, it looks pretty."

And, no, those aren't enthusiasts.

Mean Streak is the bastard child of the Roller Coast. Face it. There's no denying it. SKY RIDE has greater rider interest.

I wasn't defending or ragging on any particular rides (or even parks!) - just pointing out that raw ridership can NEVER tell the whole story. CoastaPlaya's points well-taken, however.

Truthfully, I think Cedar Point will invest in a B&M Floorless, Dive Machine, or Flying Coaster before any wood coaster is taken into consideration. I don't agree with it, but its probably what will happen.

Wooden coasters don't have to be known as "those old things." The reason they are is because we quit building them! I mean sure, theres the few new ones every 10 years like Thunderhead and Hades and what have you, but the last 10 years has been 90% steel coaster construction. Granted, manufacturers and engineers want to explore the realm of technological advances to see what can be achieved, and I think thats great! I am a huge supporter of trying new things and finding better, cooler, and safer ways of providing a great ride experience.

Nevertheless, I do believe parks and companies should revisit the roller coaster roots more often. While most of the record breaking and technological advances over the last 10-15 years have come with steel coasters, who is to say we can't do the same with wooden coasters. I'm sure there are many ways to build wooden coasters better, faster, bigger, etc.. that have not been discovered yet. There needs to be some sort of "renissance" with wood like there was in the late 80's and early 90's with steel. I'm not sure what would come of it, nor do I have any ideas about what can or should be built, but thats why we pay the engineers so much! Let them figure it out.

Bottom line, wood is just as capable of giving an awesome ride as steel, and there are better ways to build wooden rides that need to be discovered. We did it with steel costers in the late 80's, now we need to do it with wood. Too many parks lack great wooden coasters. Wood gives a ride unparalled by any steel coaster. We should be allowed to experience that as much as we are allowed to experience steel rides. Wood needs a comeback. No better place to start than at Cedar Point!

-Jeff

I forgot to add, there are better ways to make wood rides faster and more comfortable at the same time that need to be discovered!!!

-Jeff

Well Jeff, you said it better than I ever could. Thank you for echoing my philosophy so well. May I introduce you to the Wood Coaster Fan Club?!!

I don't buy that for a minute.

Ever heard of a little company called CCI? They alone built more coasters in a matter of years than were built in the decade preceding their existance.

We are in the middle or possibly end, I'm hoping for the former, of a wooden coaster renaissance IMO. With the exception of the Summers-Dinn era, there hasn't been this much wood built in such a short span since the Miller era. Add GCI, RCCA, Inamin, Vekoma, S&S and now GG to that mix and wood coasters are alive and well.

Now I am a HUGE fan of woodies and would love to see more built at the larger parks. But the simple fact is that they generally do not draw like the latest new-fangled steel coaster. Whenever I'm at a park and overhear people talking about a coaster at another park it's always a steel coaster they are gushing about.

Most people love a good wooden coaster, but rarely do Joe Schmoe and family get their panties in a bunch over some wooden coaster they are building at park x. People in the Dells looked at me like I was crazy for driving all the way up there for the coasters, even with Hades. They wanted to know why I wasn't at SFGAm if I loved coasters so much, because they have that Superman coaster where you fly. I had to talk people into trying out Avalanche because they thought that it was too small to be any fun.

Finally, if the larger parks are just going to let their wooden coasters deteriorate into the poor riding coasters that many have today I'd rather they just pass on the new woodie. A new woodie is only worth having if it's worth riding and the big players have fallen drastically short in keeping their woodies up to snuff. I'm happy leaving the woodies to the small parks, they know how to keep them running and appreciate what a good woodie can do for their park.

I have a great idea to get some new woodies for CF parks. That petition is really a great idea. but Now I have a question. Aren't Dick Kinzel and Bill Sphen really good buddies? If so I think I could say some things to Bill about getting a woodie at GL or CP. Hey you never know he might pass the word to Dick. Anyhow is you guys are really dedicated about this woodie thing than go with the petition.

Thrillerman, definitely im in the wood coaster fanclub! thanks for the invite!

Look everyone, I love steel coasters too. I am an "equal opportunity fan". I love them both. They offer two different ride experiences.

Incidentalist--i dont disagree that alot of wooden rides have been built. I'm just saying, new steelies still outnumber new woodies probably 9-1.

I dont think, however, we are in the middle of a woodie renaissance yet. We are just beginning to enter one. Let's face it, for the most part Dinn and Summers didnt build "quality" rides. Mean Streak is OK at best, and Texas Giant the same. But what I LOVE are the coasters like Ozark Wildcat, Hades, and Thunderhead. These rides are what I'm talking about! GCI has been doing it's best in the past 5-7 years with the Roars, Wildcat at Hershey etc.. Forgive me if I'm wrong but CCI built Boulder Dash? Anyway, Boulder Dash is included in that list of what I think we need to see more of! I think more rides like Hades, Boulder Dash, Thunderhead should be built!

As for your point that woodies dont get people excited like the big new steel coasters do, I dont necessarily agree. Sure everyone talks about that new steel coaster because people associate the word Steel with BIG, FAST, POWERFUL because that is all that big parks are building now a days. People have lost the mindset that wood can deliever just as FAST POWERFUL COMFORTABLE ride as a steel coaster. What we need is Cedar Point or some big park to build a great woodie that kicks ass! Have it do something unique like Hades and that tunnel. Build it on a mountain or over water. Have it be cool! Have it well built and designed so its smooth so people dont associate wood with PAIN. If they did that, people would flock to it! I mean just have it be unique in some way. Like i said, mountain coaster, underground tunnels, etc etc..! Something cool. People would love it and then youd have average park folks with hard-ons over the new woodie! (no pun intended). If cedar point did that, maybe another park would follow, and another, and so on. Then we'd have a renaissance! Then we'd have people talking about the woodens just as much as the steels.

People will rave over the wood if we give them something to rave about. Look at the steel coasters people rave about, theyre cool! 8 loops, 456 feet high, 320 feet high, drops into a ravine thru the thunderbolt, etc etc. Theyre cool! So make the woodens cool! Make them unique! Make people WANT to ride them!

-Jeff

Also, forgot to add..

If a big park like Cedar Point build a cool new woodie and it drew, and people flocked to the park to ride it, I GUARANTEE theyd maintain it better than they have maintained Mean Streak which doesnt draw. If its making them money, they'll care for it.

Thats all. Just forgot to add that point.

-Jeff

We really don't disagree on much. I much prefer a good woodie over just about any other type of coaster. We just disagree on whether or not a great woodie at a mega-park would reinvigorate the general populace's love of the wooden coaster.

We live in a society of bigger, faster, taller, more, more, more and give it to me 10 minutes ago. I don't think most people have forgotten that a wooden coaster can provide a good ride, just like they know an old school PS still has good games. They just want the state of the art technology with the never seen before gimmicks. And that is what the mega-parks can market. The thought of a wooden coaster just doesn't invoke thoughts of state of the art to most people.

We have gobs of great wooden coasters, but I can only think of one that resides at what I would call a mega-park. That would be Viper at SFGAm. That is one hell of a good coaster, but you hardly hear about it on here, much less at another park or just in general.

Sure a great woodie at a park like CP would make more people stand up and take notice, but the lines would still be bigger for MF, Raptor and TTD. I would love to see them build a new woodie. But is it really going to start a renaissance?

Viper ALWAYS had a long wait in the 4-5 visits I've made to Great America and it is MUCH better than MS. Still I wish the first two drops would have airtime like the Georgia Cyclone. Other than that the ride is perfect. If the first two drops weren't forceless the ride would be flawless and it could have been a #1 ride and get more reconition.

But that's my point. Here we already have a great woodie at one of the 'mega-parks' and what has it done for wooden coasters? :)

It always gets a good review but is rarely talked about here. If we aren't talking about it then, most likely, the gp isn't talking about it either. If people like it I'm sure they'll say positive things about it, but that will be after they get done gushing over Raging Bull, Deja Vu, Superman, etc... It surely didn't spark a woodie renaissance and I don't think a new one a CP will either.

That said, tear down MS and replace it with a racer/dueler and a kiddie woodie thrown in ta boot. Not because every park will need one after CP gets one, but because it is sorely needed at CP.

I'll agree, even if a wooden coaster renaissance did get started, the big steel rides probably would still have longer lines etc. Still, a wooden coaster rebirth would only benefit parks. A new kick ass woodie at Cedar Point would do alot for the park. Here's why it is a good investment:

-It may appeal to a larger variety of park patrons (ie kids and those too afraid of MF and TTD)

-It gives the park a variety of ride style (Steel and Wood)

-It is something different than what they have been building the last 15 years.

People probably would like to see something other than a steel giant built next at Cedar Point. I have no real evidence b/c i have not polled anyone, but I think that if CP announced a B&M floorless or something, people might be like "another looping one?" or "another steel one?" Maybe I'm wrong, but I could see that being the reacton. Because theyre not going to break the height/speed record anytime soon with anything other than an Intamin rocket coaster, and they already have one. So I think adding another steel coaster maybe will disappoint park-goers since it will not be a record breaker.

A wood coaster for CP is a must in my opinion. Will the park fail if they build a floorless? no. Will people stop going? no. But i think if a wooden is built, more people will be satisfied and more happy. Especially if they tear down mean streak. Then people will really look foreward to its wooden successor.

-Jeff

Also, 5 or 6 good woodens wont do anything for the public's view of the wooden coaster. Make it 15-20 new good kickass woodies acorss the USA in the next 5-7 years WILL do alot for the wooden coaster.

-Jeff

Like I said earlier, we agree on most points. A good wooden coaster is a great asset to any park. But will a small-medium sized woodie be something that a big park wants to add? It's hard to market no matter how good the ride is. Otherwise they go with the tallest, longest mentality and at least the tallest part has not created the most maintenance friendly rides.

But my biggest contention is your assertion that it would spark a renaissance. I believe that we are near the end of a wooden coaster boom. I hope that I'm proven wrong, but just look at the numbers.

In the past 10 years there have been 47 wooden coasters built in the US (that are still operating). Compare that with 71* woodies built in the previous decades (again that are still currently operating). Over a third of the operating woodies in America have been built in the last 10 years. That looks like a pretty sizeable building boom to me.

* a quick rcdb search that, for some reason, didn't include Leap the Dips and who knows what other coasters

The future of woodies are in the hands of the smaller parks IMO. We would never see something like Avalanche, Cornball Express or Raven at your average corporate mega-park. They are too small and don't have the roadside appeal of your multi-million dollar top of the line steel.

The CP's and large SF's will get new woodies over the years, but I highly doubt it will spark a new building boom. The smaller parks already realize the potential of a good woodie and will continue to build them as needed. Most of the middle sized parks have gotten a new woodie in the last 10-15 years and could possibly get a new one in the next decade, but that would be it. It's the few huge parks that have completely ignored them over the last decade. They might get back into the woodie market, but it's not like they will build several in a row. They will build one and then be back on track for the next 'big' thing.

After riding Avalanche and Hades I think the future of wooden coasters is bright, I just don't think that future lies in the hands of SFI or CF.

Although a coaster like Hades would solve CP's lack of space issue. ;)

When you talk about a "renaissance," you're leaving out the important part of the equation: The customers.

CCI built a ton of rides because they served a market that was largely being ignored. You could build these grand, high-impact, rides for a couple million dollars. The steel manufacturers can't do that. So the smaller parks, and in a few cases here and there larger parks, ate that up. They were in fact too inexpensive, and Denise priced CCI right out of existence and left a lot of people unpaid (still annoyed about that).

That market has been largely saturated. Companies with aggressive growth strategies like Holiday World and Mt. Olympus will continue to buy, but I doubt we'll see the quantity from the CCI gold years. That market bought the rides, and I think it'll be awhile before they buy more, if they buy any at all.

Jeff, you hit the nail on the head. We'll never know how many woodies CCI would have sold/built if their pricing had been legitimate. I, for one, am very glad to have their 42 or so rides in existence. I've been on all but 2 of them (the 2 in Spain) - and on a scale of 0-10 I think they ALL fall in the 7-10 range. I think my personal "top 10 modern woodie" list has 7 or 8 of their creations on it! Pretty good for a company in existence for about a decade.

CCI may no longer be building for the *underpriced woodie market*, but thankfully for us, their designers are still building rides for companies that will outlast (and outwit and outplay?) CCI's incredibly short but excessively sweet run...

There are a couple CCIs that could be maintained a whole lot better, and they certainly short-changed the structural integrity/coaster trains here and there (Cannonball Run?, Gerstlauers after Tom Rebbie wasn't getting paid), but there's NO doubt the track layouts, as far as INTENSITY is concerned, were above and beyond anything that the competition was building at that time....

Since then, GCI built OzCat and T-Head, S&S built Avalanche and Tsunami, and TGG is, well....NEXT! :)

Post-CCI, the future looks very bright indeed....and we were worried about nothing! ;)

*** Edited 7/1/2005 3:20:50 PM UTC by rollergator***