Two more out the door at Geagua Lake?
"Geauga Lake added two Arrow Dynamics looping coasters: “Double Loop,” and “Corkscrew”. Both were among the first rides to feature steel tubular track and multiple loops. Attendance number jumped from 426,393 in 1969 to 915,124 in 1983."
If CF can only bring in 700,000 guests per year now, they're doing something wrong.
For those in the northeastern Ohio area, what kind of advertising and marketing are you seeing for the park?
CoastaPlaya said:
But GL won't sustain a million.
When he appeared on the podcast in November 2005 Dick Kinzel said that Geauga Lake could consistently draw 1 to 1.2 mil guests per year.
That is his estimate AFTER owning the park for 2 seasons. And when you look at the size of Cleveland vs the size of Kansas City (Worlds of Fun), St Louis (Six Flags St Louis) and the Twin Cities (Valley Fair) that's not unreasonable even with Cedar Point in the same market.
This Isn't A Hospital--It's An Insane Asylum!
BogeyMon said:
If CF can only bring in 700,000 guests per year now, they're doing something wrong.
Except that you have to consider:
1. Sea World is no longer next door as a seperate, functioning entity.
2. Cleveland's population has dropped by a little more than 21% since 1980. (source)
3. From what I understand, the economy of the area isn't exactly favorable as well.
Times change, the park has to adapt. Doesn't seem real hard to me.
Captain Hawkeye:
And when you look at the size of Cleveland vs the size of Kansas City (Worlds of Fun), St Louis (Six Flags St Louis) and the Twin Cities (Valley Fair) that's not unreasonable even with Cedar Point in the same market.
Several problems with this logic as well:
1. Two of those three metro areas you listed are bigger than Cleveland (admittedly, they are similar)
2. Those parks don't have comparable/major competition nearby and not nearly as close as GL does. You have to travel pretty much at least 3 hours from all of those parks to get to a comparable (or any, really) park offering. GL has CP practically in their backyard and KW just across the state line (2 hours at the worst)
3. Six Flags never overbuilt and then abandoned any of those parks.
---
With all of that said, I wonder how the park would have done if Sea World had stayed in the game? Seems like Sea World was more of the draw and GL mostly piggybacked off of that. Combining the two as SF did was probably a misstep, but a necessity if SW was going to leave town either way.
The biggest problem to me (in the big picture) seems to be the loss of Sea World - and CF has already admitted they underestimated the importance of the animals.
I feel the same way about CP. Jungle Larrys and Oceanna were not a big draw but a huge part of the experience and atmosphere.
If Geuaga is to work, They need to dump that parking fee or at least make it reasonable. All the food and drink should be at no more than 100% profit and it needs to draw the families that can afford that sort of park. Economy ect is all crap. If it's worth it, People will find a way. If it's not. They won't.
Chuck
jwhoogs said:
When will someone decide that CP becomes an overblown park also? Does anyone ever think that CP will become too big for it's self?
[GASP!!!!!!]
Uproar and consternation!
You said "that which must not be said". Heritic!
(Where can I purchase my front row seats for the Inquisition?)
jwhoogs said:
When will someone decide that CP becomes an overblown park also? Does anyone ever think that CP will become too big for it's self?
I have to comment because you make a very good point here.
I think that since Cedar Fair know the coaster count wars have ended they might as well throw in the towel on some of their older, less popular coasters and rides.
Some of them, with their age and problems have become a liability anyway, as much as I hate to see any ride removed, it could be their next step into reducing company debt and reusing space, as we've seen with the whole WWL/Mavrick installation.
I mean really, how much longer are they going to choose to care for Mean Steeak, anyway?
Now I may be an idiot, but there is one thing I am not, sir, and that sir, is an idiot. ~ Peter Griffin
In 2004, when Cedar Fair bought the park, things looked bright. I worked at the park the following two summers (2004 and 2005), and it seemed like Cedar Fair was pumping a lot of money into the property. New signs, including fancy ones for rides. New water park. New paint on Thunderhawk. And that was just the beginning.
Then the attendance figures came in! With attendance essentially staying flat at 700,000 people a year, it seems to me as though Cedar Fair gave up on the park after the 2005 season.
They may have not given up on it in terms of meaning to sell it or close it down, but it started to become obvious that the company wasn't going to keep pouring money into that property. So here came the budget cuts. Shorter season, scaled back water park, etc. And guess what, attendance overall didn't improve. More budget cuts followed, including the loss of staff, and the removal of rides. Again, the season was also shortened.
But not only did the park (apparently, based on my observations and speculation) cut their budgets in 2007, but they raised their prices. Less to do for a higher price. I still can't understand this, as the value of a single day ticket went down, while the price went up. Even a cheap new water slide would have added value, but they didn't bother putting one in.
I don't know what the future holds for Geauga Lake, but I am not too optimistic. It is obvious to me that Cedar Fair has lost hope for this property, and is now just trying to be profitable, with as little investment as possible, as the large amounts of money they invested for the 2004 and 2005 seasons didn't produce good results.
Would you keep pouring money into a car that kept needing more repairs? Or would you sell it or scrap it, and put the money to better use? I think Cedar Fair is doing the latter, and even though I don't like it, I don't think there is anything we can do about it.
The company invested some money into the park, and the results were poor, and with the Paramount acquisition, I doubt they have the desire to pump any more money into a park that still would need huge improvements just to get people back through the gate.
The above is my opinion, and should not be construed as anything else. I do not know what is going on at Geauga Lake in terms of 2008 plans, and I am only speculating, based on what I have seen and read.
-Sam
*** Edited 8/30/2007 9:18:09 PM UTC by Avalanche Sam***
The reason I think GL will not even live on as a water park is due to several things: One, they have several new water park competitors in Ohio, Kalihari, Great Wolf, and even their own CP properties. Two, the weather for a stand alone outdoor only waterpark in Northern Ohio is much worse than where they own other water parks, and the season would be too short to be very profitable. Three, if they intended to keep this water park, they would continue to invest in it despite what they are doing on the rides side, since 2005 they have not.
I wish I were wrong, GL is a beautiful park set around the lake, with a ton of potential. But at this point in the Cedar Fair plan, they cannot afford to keep this place going, and they don't want anyone else coming into their backyard and bringing GL up to it's potential. I truly think if you want to visit this park you better do it soon.
john peck said:
Some of them, with their age and problems have become a liability anyway,
... and you know this how??
June 11th, 2001 - Gemini 100
VertiGo Rides - 82
Lurker said:
...they don't want anyone else coming into their backyard and bringing GL up to it's potential.
After the history the park has had, I doubt anyone would want to buy it up and try to make it work. I think at this point it is beyond repair and needs to be laid to rest.
Lord Gonchar said:[quote Sea World is no longer next door as a seperate, functioning entity
Even so, wasn't Sea World already struggling before the Six Flags makeover in 2000? The conversion was pretty much the final nail for them as a profitable park. They knew SF was going to come calling and got out while the getting was good. I remember them offering a "one day admission automatically becomes a season pass" deal towards the end.
Captain Hawkeye said:
CoastaPlaya said:
But GL won't sustain a million.
When he appeared on the podcast in November 2005 Dick Kinzel said that Geauga Lake could consistently draw 1 to 1.2 mil guests per year.That is his estimate AFTER owning the park for 2 seasons. And when you look at the size of Cleveland vs the size of Kansas City (Worlds of Fun), St Louis (Six Flags St Louis) and the Twin Cities (Valley Fair) that's not unreasonable even with Cedar Point in the same market.
While that may be true Kinzel probably overestimated the park's ability to draw in the crowds as evidenced by the attendance figures.Nobody could've predicted nearly two years ago that Cleveland's economy would take a dive as it apparently has & this has obviously had an impact on the park so as a result it may be better to relocate valuable assets to other properties to recover at least some of the investment.
Don't forget that,in 2005 when Kinzel made those statements purchasing the paramount parks chain wasn't even an option as that didn't take place until mid season last year.CF now has more parks to deal with,and as a result more debt & I'm sure that they don't want to end up in the situation that SFI ended up in when they went on a park buying spree so they're gonna relocate rides to the parks that continue making a profit sadly at the expense of the one park that isn't turning as much of a profit.
START OVER.
If CF ever decides to sell the ride side, a company buys it out and restores GL to the classic park it used to be.
Bring back the old flat rides! Music express, monorail, tilt-a-whirl, tea cups, etc... Line that midway with all the classics that used to be there. RESTORE the 50's midway! Bright lights, theming, make it SHINE.
Have BETTER food. Fresh cut fries, hand drawn funnel cakes, elephant ears! Lower prices, and make better food!
Keep mind eraser, double loop, dipper, raging wolf bobs and "serial thriller". Let CF remove and take out the others, we don't need them!
Bring back turtle beach and hooks lagoon. Free parking, $20-25 admission.
Imagine the advertising you could do! GL restored back to it's original glory, and just START OVER.
In essence - CF is doing all the WRONG things to make people go to GL... People want what they experienced years ago, and today, they do not get ANY of it. It's sad.
Just my .02c. *** Edited 8/30/2007 11:46:29 PM UTC by SteveWoA***
Start counting to 700,000 on your fingers, people. That's a LOTTA butts through the gates. CP numbers? KI numbers? No. But still a lotta butts. Mostly wet butts, perhaps. But still a lotta butts.
Enough to justify a megapark's arsenal of coasters? Not exactly. Enough to justify a $15 million cap ex season? Once a decade, maybe. But that's about it. Enough to keep a park open? Absolutely. Oh hell yeah.
Enough to justify $2-4 million a year cap ex on ridiculous slides and wet attractions the likes of which the world has never seen? Oh, I hope so. Do I ever. And so should everyone modest enough to wear a T-shirt and unafraid to climb some stairs...
-'Playa
Edited: Added the word 'to'
*** Edited 8/31/2007 12:08:07 AM UTC by CoastaPlaya***
NOTE: Severe fecal impaction may render the above words highly debatable.
Gasp! Did alot for Holidayworld (not like they ever had a 'bad' reputation anyway...
That would get people talking. And with crazy prices across the board for CF, it would do something good for the park...
The Indians reported attendance of 1,998,070 in 2006 as compared to 3,175,523 in 2001. No source is blaming the economy on the slide; in 2001 the Indians won 91 games and their division. In 2006 they won 78 games and came in fourth. Some call it fair weather fans but I think it comes down to return on investment where the patron wants fun and enjoyment in exchange for dollars. A winning baseball team provides a better ROI than a losing team.
Amusement parks, like baseball, have an ROI of fun. Maybe it is just the animals being gone, but it doesn't appear GL is returning enough fun. According to federal figures, Cleveland-Akron spends 4.8 percent of income on entertainment, below the 5.1 national average but higher than the 4.4 percent spent in Detroit. If they're not going to baseball games or Geauga, where are the Clevelanders going for their fun? And if Detroit and Cleveland are the big markets for CP, I hope they're advertising heavily farther south in Ohio.
Closed topic.
