Son of Beast closes

Mamoosh said:
...are you saying that in a less than a month the ride went from "El Toro smooth" to the rough, shuffling, jackhammering POS we all know the ride to be?

Though I don't know if it's possible to go from that much of an extreme to another in that short of time, I will say that when my daughter and I hit Waldameer last week, our multiple rides on RFII were significantly rougher than our experience on opening day this year, only three months or so prior. (We were rather disappointed.) So a coaster certainly can change substantially within a short period of time...maybe just not as much as Robscoast seems to be implying.

Actually, I can vouch that Son of Beast did ride very smoothly on its opening day, at least for me. We were one of the very first of the GP riders (about 100th in line) and the ride was amazingly smooth. Then again, our ride was in the front seat so that may have had something to do with it. My brother and I both got off the ride completely amazed at how a wooden coaster that big could be so smooth. Of course, later rides wouldn't prove to be so good but for that one ride it was terrific.

I went on the ride for the first time less then two months after it opened, and it was horribly rough already.

Add me as one of the few who experienced a smooth ride on SOB. This was my first ride in 2003. SOB was amazing, and the loop seemed to be the least intense of the coaster's elements. However, the next day my ride wasn't as smooth, but it wasn't rough or painful, more or less typical wooden coaster feeling. Although, things went bad to worse in 2004, to that point in my coaster experiences I had never felt as if my body was abused, but SOB had done it. Also, this time the loop came as a relief. I wanted to take a reride without the loop but my 2009 trip took place after the sudden closure. For me the layout wasn't hideous, but I though the excessively long midcourse brake could have been desighed better. Overall, my best ride on SOB never topped The Beast.

I'm going to call partial BS on the train stuff.

Yes, the original trains were really heavy. And yes, the weight may have been a contributing factor in the track damage that led to the last extended closure. But the State report implied that the park's prior maintenance on the ride may have also been a factor, as the prior efforts at improving rideability through the large helix centered on stiffening the structure. If I remember correctly, the failure was on an upright column in the middle of a shared bent that supports both the inner and outer helix track on the uphill side. In stiffening the bottom of the helix, the park actually increased the load further up the track. A lighter train might have done less damage to the ride, but I can't imagine that the total difference in wheel load is *that* extreme between the two trains.

That said, it's well known that the Premier trains were crap, that the cars were much too long for their wheelbase (resulting in the side-to-side shuffle felt by riders in the first and third rows of each car) and that the seating compartment was almost impossible to ride in. My personal opinion is that the seating position forced by the raised floor probably contributed to the two "broken neck" injuries, and I am sure that all the people who worked on rehabbing the ride knew what they were dealing with.

I'm not sure that the difference in train weight is the most important reason for removing the loop, though. The first place I'd look is at the couplers on the Gerstlauer cars. I'm not certain that the hitch configuration is capable of allowing the train to pitch all the way through that vertical loop; it was pretty tight up top. Second, even if the train could handle the loop, I don't think Gerstlauer would automatically give their +approval for such use, and I doubt that Cedar Fair would want to go through the time, effort, and expense of conducting a full design analysis on the train to see if it is suitable for the loop, when it is easier (truly!) to simply remove the loop and turn the ride into a more conventional one.

Not that I know anything, of course. But I think there was more at play than the train weight in the decision to switch to the Gerstlauer train and the decision to remove the loop. Just an opinion, mind you, and a mostly uninformed one at that.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I say they try and replace the ride with a combination of El Toro and Voyage! 80 degree drop, 90 degree banked turns and hills with airtime galore. Man wouldn't that be something!!! A coaster enthusiasts dream come true. I know I am a dreamer. =)

And then CP can finally add their 500 ft B&M floorless that goes out into Lake Erie and the Stratosphere will add the coaster on the side of the tower too and we will enter coaster nirvana....

Dave, your posts are often so illuminating. Thank you for contributing.

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I also want to reiterate that I rode SOB the week after it opened, and it was the only coaster ride in my life where I felt that I was really in danger. I thought that something was wrong. Running through my head was, "If it get's any worse, everyone in this train is going to be sent to the hospital with broken bones, internal bleeding, and the like." Nothing about it was smooth.

So maybe you had to sit in the right seat, or the right train, or the weather had to be a certain way for one to experience a smooth ride.

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I'm still waiting for that source, Robscoast. I want to believe you, because it sound very plausable, but a lot of people here are saying otehrwise, and right now I am believing them.

RideMan posted:
[a really long post]

I always get excited when this happens.

Tear It Down!

Tear It Down!

Tear It Down!

Oops......Guess I tried to start the village uprising a little to soon. ;)

If I remember correctly, when the ride opened for the preview, the initial reports kept talking about a bad jolt at the top of the second hill, a jolt that was barely noticeable in the front but really bad in the back, and that got worse as the day went on.

I know that the park immediately shut the ride down and worked on the top of the second hill. Since then (I wasn't there that night, and I got my first ride some weeks later) it's improved, but what I find interesting is to look at that spot and realize that what is going on is a problem unique to wood coasters, and probably a result of the ride having been designed by a steel coaster designer. Wood coaster cars can't steer, so there has to be enough slop in the track gauge to allow the cars to fit around the curve. That hill is steeply banked, so as the train approaches the top of the hill, it slows down. At the top, the front of the train is moving fast enough that it slides right off the outside rail, but the back of the train is moving more slowly, so gravity literally drags it to the inside rail. Wham.

What I have also learned is that a minor error or bounce at any point in the ride can cause the train to start doing bad things. Perhaps the most obvious example I have ever seen...let me see if I have photos up...no, sorry, I don't...but when I visited Cypress Gardens in '08, the Starliner had all new track, and it was perfect all the way to the turnaround. Halfway through the turnaround, there was a spot where the outside rail was cut about 3/4" to the inside, resulting in a sideways jolt that only lasted for a couple of *inches*. From that spot to the end of the ride, there was noticeable wheel chatter, both lateral and vertical bounce that was actually visible in the wear pattern on the track steel. If that tiny little error was causing noticeable mistracking on a midsize ride like the Starliner, what was a non-repairable jolt like the top of Son of Beast's second hill going to do to the rest of that ride?

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Your knowledge blows me away every time Dave. Thanks for the insight!

LostKause said:
I love how new people ask for us to take it easy on them...lol It's kinda' cute. :)

I just always assume they are referring to Madouche. :)

I will not argue this with Dave-I know better.
But I will state my opinions on the matter.

Sob opening night- Smooth as Ice in back seat, Except top of second hill,
This area was incorrectly banked, and did have a bad jolt.
one and a half months later after top of second hill was rebuilt, and 1,000 more test trains ran, it re-opened... And was about as rough as it has ever been.
It had extensive work done everywhere. Fixing most of the problems, minus the rosebowl.
They did keep adding wood there- and made it too rigid- this led to the snapped timber, However if the trains were not so heavy, and unable to turn- this extra wood would not have been needed.

The problem with the trains was not just the weight, It had more to do with the front axle being positioned 2 ft. behind the front of the car.
One car would enter the turns and pull the next that direction, but the next cars wheels were still on straight track...Bad design.

As far as the loop is concerned that is simple-Gerstluar said no.
And top this off by the constant tightening of of track to the support, it was a no brainier to scrap it.

I do not know for sure, if Re tracking it will solve the problem.
I do know that it has had very little work done on it since it reopened with the new trains, And it has not gotten much rougher.

The rough spots are as follows, and I will explain each.
Both lower passes on the rosebowl- First helix.
Right where the new and old track connect, obviously the old track has been compressed farther, resulting in a small bump.
But a small bump at 70 MPH. hits hard.

The other rough spots are at the top of second helix- The entrance.
And on the end of the last turn. both of these are caused because of over braking the ride. the extreme banking was designed to run at a certain speed, When it is run to slow it does not pin to the outside Guide rail, But instead falls to the inside rail, and ricochets.
If you get one of the few, less brake rides, The end is Smooth- and has a few nice pops of Airtime. But for some reason the park would rather abuse the Ride, and the rider by allowing it to shuffle.

Please Dave, call me out on anything I said, If I am dead wrong.
Because I need to know, if I am.

Rob

The top of the 2nd hill is one of the most violent coaster elements out there. I can't think of anything that tops it at the moment.

It seemed like removing the loop would add more speed to the latter half of the ride. However, videos show that the G-trains run slower, probably due to length/mass. I also don't understand why they brake so much on the midcourse. The second half is all Mean Streak type speed and shuffling.

It seems criminal that Villain got scrapped and this thing is still standing.

Maybe they should just "switch" second hills - PR for SoB...since neither of them belong to the coaster they're attached to, maybe they'd work out OK on the *other* hyper.. ;)

They brake heavily on the midcourse because there's no longer a loop to bleed off some of the momentum.

I totally understand what Jeff said. There is no need for the trains to be moving at such a high rate of speed because there is no loop to go through anymore. Yet I agree with Pagoda, with the amount of breaking in the mid coarse dose create a lot of shuffling witch makes it a lot like Meanstreak.

Maybe reduce the amount of breaking in the mid coarse to keep the trains stable through the second half of the ride?

Which witch? Of coarse I'm referring the MaV 'n MaG's use of homophones.

Witches are scary, bear. I wonder which word he meant to use? At least he doesn't use coarse language. ;)

Of "course", I am just kidding around.