Six Flags WoA attendance continues to plummet.

I'm glad someone finally mentioned the clientel in this thread! I usually avoid that topic so as to be P.C. and not get ripped for it, but I think that's another thing that sets other parks (not just CP, I'm talkin KBF, Dorney, etc) aside from Six Flags parks.

If you read back through some of my other SFWoA trip reports other than the one Danny cited (I was under PittDesigner for all of them) you'll see that in at least two others, I mentioned the other people around me being of a different ... well, class, than the folks I'd experienced at KW or CP (my only other two major parks at the time). And that trend continued this year, even in my "glowing" trip report. I've begun to overlook it and its just sort of a given now, but I think that because of Six Flags' greater name recognition and such, the concept of a hang out that can attract unattended younger kids, "thug" or "think-they're-thug" folks, and basically people who wouldn't have the time or desire to visit a park that doesn't have the Six Flags out front or costs them $40 or $50 a piece to get in the gate, is what takes away from the atmosphere that I talked about earlier and always mention as SFWoA's problem.

I don't know if there's any way to fix this problem though. If people are rude, they're rude, and there's nothing you can really do, short of charging $50 a day and making season passes actual season passes (like charging $250 for them) to really try and alter that. But, I definitely agree with wahoo and even more than the things I mentioned earlier and more than what others have said, the clientel is probably 75% of what keeps me away from Six Flags. Am I a stuck-up, opinionated, closed-minded bastard for wanting a "classier" crowd at my amusement park? Probably. But regardless, there are others like me (like my Dad and most of my friends who don't want to go to the park more than once a year if that) both inside and outside the Enthusiast community (well mainly outside since I'm the only person I know well who's in) who cite this as their reason for not going.

Maybe since there are three parks in one, a rise in gate price, and an altering of the season pass price across the company would go a ways towards fixing this problem (which I also noticed at SFMM, but not SFMW or SFGAdv ... surprised by the last one though), or maybe there's just nothing you can do and us stuck-up-rich-boys will have to keep our money and our comments to ourselves (and CP).

Brett,

I don't think it has to do with being a "stuck-up-rich-boy". (And yes, I was a little concerned about raising this particular point but if all things are to be considered than this is an issue.)

Frankly, I don't go to the movies much anymore because I don't like being subjected to the kids that have no sense of proper behavior. I would rather just wait for a movie to come out on DVD. (I would love to see theaters have an 18 & over night similar to what they are doing now with a kids/infants time period).

And this isn't a race issue in my opinion. You see all races represented at amusement parks, even the expensive parks. This is an issue of kids running amok in large groups, line jumping and a general disregard to those around them.

I do think that a higher season pass price and not giving away the gate (with crazy "banana bunch" discount days and the like) would lessen (not eliminate) this problem.

If you look at each of the issues I cited earlier, none of them, on their own, are huge, glaring problems that can't be avoided. Yes, I have seen Cedar Point trashy. I have seen some rude employees at Cedar Point.

But when you experience all of these problems in one visit it is overwhelming and may be why they aren't getting many returning guests. Standing in a long line at Cedar Point and standing in a long, trashy line at WoA with kids driving you mad are NOT comparable, in my opinion. *** Edited 12/24/2003 3:13:18 PM UTC by wahoo skipper***

Yea, I didn't mean it to be a race thing either, in fact, I think its far from that. To be blunt, the white kids that don't have parents around for miles or think they're thugs are a hundred times worse IMHO.

The 18+ night is a great idea and I have thought since I was a freshman that amusement parks should have Friday or Saturday nights that the park closes at like 9, and opens at 10 and doesn't close til 2am. Anyone with a valid ID showing 18+ can get in and not have to deal with younger kids around. You might still have some problems, but I think that adults are much easier to deal with than the kiddos (and their parents who get incensed when you try and discipline them)

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I'm a travel enthusiast too, but I don't fly ValuJet because they're giving it the ol' college try. The name is different, but I know they used to be AirTran. They'll have to land a lot of planes successfully before I'll fly with them.

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First off, just for clarity, they *used* to be called ValueJet, they are *now* called AirTran (in case anyone at home was confused). I have to admitt, they are starting to grow on me. I took them down to ATL on Thanksgiving and again a week later to Chicago for a funeral and it was quite nice. The employees were good natured and the new 717s that they fly almost exclusively now are some smooth riding mamajamma's. If they flew non-stop from DC-Regan/National to Chicago-Midway, I'd use them more often! :)

lata, jeremy

--still searching for a good airline since USAir went down the crapper

To someones comment on foreign employee's since 2001 this season(2003) was the first season we didnt use foriegn employees and i think it really hurt at the end when most kids went back to school. After labor day was when staffing became a issue.

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RollerCoasterGod said:
Sticking with the original subject of SFWoA "Continuing" to plummet. Is it REALLY plummeting?

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You know... you and others keep going on about how much better things are. Maybe that's true, I wouldn't know since I won't go, but is the 7% drop in attendance something we're imagining? Maybe it's just my wacky sense of business, but having less customers doesn't exactly scream success to me.

I have a few comments regarding these observations... and while I always have enjoyed the park of many names in Aurora, OH, I too agree that there are many things need to be done.

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wahoo skipper said:
1) Trash....Trash gives an amusement park a "carnival" feel if you ask me. What a simple thing that WoA could correct, too. I am not sure if I have ever seen a "tie" from WoA bend down and pick up trash but we all know Kinzel and other CP managers are famous for it. It starts at the top, no?

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The "carnival" feel has been brought up many times. Six Flags likes to call the place a "theme park", but slapping a big "S" on a Superman ride, adding some cheap theming to a trailer-mounted water gun game, and using some cardboard-looking "50's" elements do not make a "theme park". I think the best theme job the park has is the Texas Twister (1993 Huss Top Spin), and that was not a Six Flags project.

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wahoo skipper said:
2) Capacity. I don't buy this argument. I don't think the average guest knows if a ride has 2 or 3 trains or understands why one might not be operating. The average guest knows how long their wait is and it is comparable most of the time (if not better than) to Cedar Point.

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Surprisingly, I hear more people discuss this particular item. When people see the other train sitting on the transfer track on rides like Big Dipper and X-Flight and the line is long, I have heard guests rumble that they should be using both "carts". Of course, this is coming from the same people who think Superman Ultimate Escape should be running two "carts" as well... ;)

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wahoo skipper said:
Customer Service must be a goal from the top down, too, and I don't get that sense at WoA.

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That is so true. I have been going to the park on opening weekend during each of the Six Flags years. Those days, the management team is out greeting guests in the park, the parking lot attendants wish you a nice day, and the park just has a generally happy feel to it. As the month of May wears on, that feeling gets replaced by one of indifference. If the employees and management don't care, why should the guests care about returning? It's such a mixed bag when it comes to SFWoA service. The lack of consistency is mind-boggling.

You make some very good points skipper. With SFWoA just 30 miles from me, I guess I have a slight bias towards the place. However, I am not blinded by the fact that there is still a long way to go before this park can claim to be one of the world's best.

ray p.

That 7% is my exact point. The park WAS screaming and packed with customers this 2003 season unlike past years.

Hence why Me, Cleveland Plain Dealer writers (and a photographer), Employees, pretty much everyone who has been there in 2003 think the number is WAY off or one heck of a error. Personally I would take a Very rough stabb at saying it was at least 2% UP from 2002. I went to the park many times both years and can tell you there was WAYYy more people coming through those gates in 2003. Which is why most who know think this number is a strange. In some of the above posts.

People are taking these (or this paticular) number(s) like it's the Bible/Karan/etc. There are a few other numbers I would question on that list also.

"The Future of Roller Coasters"
-RollerCoasterGod
Happy Holidays!
*** Edited 12/24/2003 4:41:40 PM UTC by RollerCoasterGod***

The Plain Dealer wrote the article. I don't know who says the figures are wrong.

Bottom line is WoA has become an anchor in the Six Flags chain. Burke himself has cited this park specifically as having problems and that the acquisition of Sea World has not gone the way they expected.

Jeff spoke to "sources" that say the Plain Dealer figures were actually pretty liberal. I have heard the same things. In fact, early in the season I heard that they were basically giving area group tickets to try to boost their lagging attendance and it didn't really work which led to cutting back much earlier than they had anticipated.

I think what we need to do is stop recruiting the 15 year olds and aim more towards retirees who might treat the job and customer with more respect.

The park was packed in the last two weeks leading up to labor day (around the time both parking lots had to open to handle the crowd).

One of the best days toward the end of the season had to be Oktoberfest. Even on weekdays in June and July the attendence seemsed to be pretty solid.

I would question the 7% drop, it seems very inaccurate.

Edit: now the attendance is one thing, but the people through the gate don't always equal profit. many park employees know the situation. *** Edited 12/24/2003 4:54:21 PM UTC by Scoot!***

Uh oh, the "clientel" issue.

First off, let me say I hate the "P.C. thing" more than anyone, but let me follow that up by saying I've never (let me emphasize never) felt unsafe at a park.

As far as SF parks go, I've spent the most time at SFGAdv - the one most cited for "gangs" and feeling "unsafe" and even there I've never been wigged by the people around me. At SFWOA, I've never even seen kids that remotely resemble an unsafe situation. I really think a lot of kids get a bad rap for looking lke they do.

However, I do find the way many kids act when unsupervised at the parks to be very grating and annoying. The problem there is I've seen this behavior at a wide range of parks and it's more to do with a general lack of repect than anything. But on the other hand, I've seen adults act that way too.

*To be totally honest, I felt more uncomfortable at parks like Waldameer and Conneaut (and to a lesser extent Knoebels) with their general clientel being "rural folk" than I ever have around the "city kids".

I'll give you guys the "babysitter" thing that most SF parks fall into (it was my lone gripe about Dorney too - drop the kids off and come back at the end of the day), but I've never felt unsafe or uncomfortable around them - even the "thugs".

So when should I go get that "Thug Life" tat across my stomach? ;)

I have to say it again. SFWoA is such a shame, it has so much promise, but continuing problems within are killing this park, (if not the chain). I love most of their coasters, (except that neckbreaker Serial Thriller). On the outside, the city of Aurora has got to be licking it's chops, because if WoA keeps in it's current pace they'll get their wish, and close it down!

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wahoo skipper said:
The Plain Dealer wrote the article. I don't know who says the figures are wrong... Jeff spoke to "sources" that say the Plain Dealer figures were actually pretty liberal. I have heard the same things.

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The PD was only quoting AB. I'm not going to come right out and say where I got the 1.8 million figure except to say that it was from within the company from someone who should certainly know. Remember... everyone in the industry talks to each other, even when they're not supposed to. When you can't pin the information on a specific person, it's safe to share. When you hear about a new significant coaster deal that only the park and manufacturer know about, you keep your mouth shut. I'll share anything that can't be traced to a specific person, and this is one of those cases.

Aurora doesn't want the park to close. Theirs is a bittersweet relationship. The park brings a lot of money to the area, they just want some controls. Who is bothered by Cedar Point's 400 foot coaster? No one.

Lord Gonchar, how many kids do you have? I felt safer at all parks when I was younger and didn't have any responsibilities. Heck, I feel safe at a carnival when I am only worried about myself.

But families may have a different take on the matter. And really, they are ususally bigger spenders inside parks than teenagers or young adults even.

Now that I have a child the perceived safety of the environment (including the people around me) is a huge factor in where I go. There are malls I used to go to here in Florida that I will not go to with my child.

And, I am not saying that WoA isn't a safe park. It is about perception and there are a lot more loose kids running around there than at CP.

I have two kids. (ages 6 & 2)

I'll stand by that earlier statment that I've never felt the situation was unsafe at an amusment park. Annoying? Plenty of times, but never unsafe.

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Lord Gonchar said:

So when should I go get that "Thug Life" tat across my stomach?

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That was soo last week. Now the thing is to get Chinese symbols tatted on your neck!

lata, jeremy

Watch out for the medallion my diamonds are reckless
Feels like a MIDGET is hanging from my necklace

I have spent all of my years at SFWoA. Not once did I ever feel threatened or unsafe. I went to SFGAdv and was in the same atmosphere. I wasn't feeling unsafe at a SF park until I visited SFDL. I just hope SFWoA doesn't ever fall down with that park or attendance will really be down. I wrote a TR from when I visited this summer.

http://www.coasterbuzz.com/forum.aspx?mode=thread&TopicID=32424 *** Edited 12/24/2003 8:08:57 PM UTC by coasterzak***

Aww, so much for my wife's matching tat reading "Thug Wife" across her stomach then...

All of the cool tattoo ideas are played out.

I don't buy the "not feeling safe excuse" you get thugs everywhere and nobody hates thugs more than I do, but I have noticed if your in line, sitting, anywhere and there bothering you, let em know, they'll behave, they just act tuff. I was at a park last season and a few thugs were in line behind me buying some food and then they were sitting behind me whiile I was eating, the language from their mouths was not even close to being appropriate for a park let alone an "R" rated movie, then they were slapping each other and finally the accidently hit near my wallet in my back pocket, I turned around and said "Which one of you want to kiss the curb first or should I drop you at the same time?" They stopped and looked scarred, infact they avoided me the rest of the day. Odds are there not going to do anything, esp at SFWOA, there's a deputy out frort directing traffic and metal detectors at the entrances. SFWOA's problem isn't in its thug patrons (they don't help the cause either) its in their managment and overall operations.