Six Flags WoA attendance continues to plummet.

No, Jeff, you completely missed the point. On a small scale (CoasterBuzz), I'm asking if people who went in 2001 and 2002 and had a bad time will try again. Word-of-mouth is progressive and has to start at some point. *But* opinions, reports, reviews of the park for 2003 are likely more valid to the current and future state of operation into 2004 than those coming off 2000, 2001, and 2002 and refusing to return. I had the single worst park experience ever at Knott's in 1998... It was even worse in 2001... Friends from that area said the park has improved, so I'm going to give them another chance. It worked for me. YMMV.

-Danny *** Edited 12/24/2003 2:25:51 AM UTC by Koaster King***

Who cares if CoasterBuzzers or enthusiasts go? As .001% of the annual visitorship it's not relevant to whether or not the park is going to get on track attendance wise. I didn't miss the point, yours is just not one I consider relevant to the topic.

It's not about us, it's not about Cedar Point (not really, anyway). All of the well-wishing in the world makes not a solution to solving the park's problems. I'll certainly go back when they build something, but as much as I love Villain, I'll stick to CP and PKI this year.

Unless enthusiasts and CoasterBuzzers don't have friends, family, etc. to recommend the park to after they go, you didn't dig deep enough to get the point. 28 Days Later made over $40 million dollars (a lot for a small independent film) and simply relied on word of mouth and extremely little marketing in advertising. If words of a few spread (because it started out in very limited release) to millions, you know it can do something. Maybe I'm being completely unrealistic. I think to show that the majority opinion of the park is positive when several are claiming it to be negative and a reason for their downfill is important. There's no well-wishing since those reports mention improvement across the board on their part.

Who says the same GP haven't gone back simply due to the "bigger and better" CP and lack of new major ride additions since X-Flight. What was SFWOA's attendance in '01? I'm not arguing that they have zero problems, but what did Dorney (yes, ask what this has to do with anything) do to lose so much attendance as well in 2003? Is there customer service down? Yes, if you ask me. "Half-train" op on Thunderhawk, one-train for Hercules, took almost double the time to load around half the amount of people for their mouse compared to Hershey's, uninformed employees,... Could be about right. Or they didn't add anything interesting for the season.

Mojo, maybe CP needs to pass it on to Dorney and KBF like SFGAm needs to for SFWOA.

-Danny *** Edited 12/24/2003 2:41:31 AM UTC by Koaster King***

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Jeff said:

A friend of mine (who ironically later worked at the park in maintenance) thought it was so bad on a visit in 2000 (or 2001) that he actuall called the state. The results were the surprise visits and fines that followed.

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You mean that after your friend reported the park for safety violations, he later went to work for them? Uhhh, ok??? :)

If the state of Ohio showed up and issued fines for safety violations, I am assuming SF corporate stepped in and made drastic changes? The result now should be strict enforcement, right?

Hahahahaha. Yeah... right. :) The next year a kid got sucked into a water intake in the pool.

Assuming enthusiasts all know a thousand people, that'll reach a full 1% of the guest market. Get those dialing fingers ready, Danny!

Getting 1% more people in there that weren't planning on going originally is quite a feat! Oh, and I did my part right here (if only coaster geeks and enthusiasts read this site looking for park info, that's sad). You can miss out on going to the park. It's not like you would even know you did or didn't have fun if you never go. ;)

If comparable guests enjoyed the park this year as displayed in the TR (that's most of the 1.8+ million people), you won't even have to worry your little head off if good things are getting around. It'll show and the weather was a factor, even when I went in August with some fellow Buzzers. I know they had a great time as well and plan to go back.

-Danny

You know it's funny, I've had some of the worst park experiences of my life at Cedar Point, not Six Flags. I've had some really great times there too, but my last experience there was nothing but curveballs all day. And I still go to Cedar Point every year. No park is perfect, period.

To say you won't go back until they build something new sounds childish and immature. That's not the appropiate attitude for a true coaster enthusiast. I'll go to any park with a coaster whether they treat me nice, or throw curveballs at me all day. But, I'd never say I'm not going to go back until they build something new...I'd miss out on a lot.

If you don't want to play MY Way, I'm taking my bat and going home!!!!! So there. ;-)

Wood - anything else is an imitation *** Edited 12/24/2003 4:08:49 AM UTC by Thrillerman***

Well I will say that this was by far the worst park that I visited when I was on my coaster hopping tour (which included HW, SFKK, Wyandot Lake, PKI, CP, Waldameer, SFDL, Marineland, MiA). The way they treat their guests is terrible. The layout of the park is horrible. The lack of real shade, water fountains and water mists is pathetic. The whole "wild rides, wild life" thing just doesn't flow at all. The rides themselves are nothing to write home about. The wooden coasters rank in the WORST maintained that I have been on. Even their B&M was subpar!!! It is just a dissapointing park, considering how large it is -- you would THINK that it could at least have SOMETHING that would make it worth the journey. However considering that most of the people in Ohio (that I heard) refer to Cleveland as the "mistake by the lake" then what else should I have expected. I guess I'm jadded when it comes to parks, but SFWoA was a real let down. Didn't even spend a full day there mainly because we were so disgusted with the place.

-DHo
*Razorback - the OTHER white meat - Go MIZZOU!*

This argument comes up at least once a year. Some like the park and some don't.

I enjoyed my visit back in 2002. The only thing that was irritating was the one train operation on all of the woodies.

As I have said in the past, its a shame this park is on a downward spiral because IMO they have the assets for a successful place to visit.

You would think that SF would put the extra effort into this park considering the money they have spent on new coasters, the aquisition of Sea World, and having a very successfull park just over an hour to the west of them.

Are they planning something soon that all of us don't know about? Its just really odd at best.

Maybe they should do the same thing SFMM is doing $24.99 for local residents, then maybe people would come and be happy and feel they got a better deal paying 25 bucks, then paying normal fees.

Mojo, I am going to argue with you here.

All those people paying their money (and apparently taking their chances) at the gate are not guests. This is a Disney thing that made sense as a concept 30 years ago, but today, standards of hospitality are different...and we're dealing with a company that is run by bean counters. All those people coming in the front gate are CUSTOMERS and should be treated as such. Think of them as "guests" and it is far too easy to forget that those are the people who are paying your salary! I think it's time to stop mincing words, at least when you're dealing with an organization that doesn't seem to 'get' the codewords. So drop the code and use the language that the bean counters can understand. They're customers, and without them, the park fails.

Another point about ride operations and ride capacity:
People in lines that are moving are far less destructive than people in lines that are not moving. Look at the queues at Cedar Point and you will notice that the worst graffiti and other vandalism is confined to the areas closest to the station, where people are stuck waiting when the ride breaks down. Single train operation makes for long boring waits between dispatches, and ultimately appears to result in significant property damage to the queues. Then, other customers see the continuous line of graffiti, carvings, and stuck gum and immediately think, "This path is disgusting!".

Notice how everything fits together? It's a system, folks, and it needs to be treated as such!

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Koaster King - You mentioned one of my trip reports to the park and I would like all of you to know I used my pass at SFWoA 25 times this year. One good trip report doesn't represent a first impression. So many of the times I was so frustrated that I didn't have the guts to type a trip report out and post it on here to have everyone say, "You're just biased against the park because of Cedar Point." My last visit to the park was in the middle of August because the line on BKF had not been closed at 2 til closing and a family got up to the platform, they were denied a ride, cussed at, and told to go try X-Flight because they close that line off a little later. I recall hearing the F word not only from the ride operator first, but also the angry guest. Also, I recall a worker wetting his pants because he couldn't get a break this summer. I remember a worker closing a restraint too hard on a girl and her having to be hospitalized. I remember seeing a kid get smashed in an airgate and the SFWoA meds getting called. I remember ride operators that would allow dangerous activities to go on the ride only because they had to be a NAZI and watch the line. Maybe I was at the park too many times, but you see things that could be corrected and they are not. Incidents like these are exactly what keeps people away from SFWoA. If I wouldn't have been an employee the end of the season I could tell you the other 3/4 I observed. It's not stereotypical or CP bashing at all - the staff at SFWoA is lacking and this is exactly what causes the low attendance. I am going to compare the two parks not because I'm some small teenage girl over in California that rode TTD once and I think CP is the best park in the world, but because I have been to both parks enough to know the atmospheres. CP is very professional - you feel safe and welcome at the park. At SFWoA, you don't feel welcome by the majority of sloppy lazy ops and also you don't feel safe when you see they forgot to move a bookbag off the floor on BKF and don't know why the train won't dispatch. It's all specifics that lead one to generalize. Sure the first time to the park, my eyes were open to a great season. It was a heck of a lot better than 2002, but I just don't see what all the complaining is about. Attendance is down because customer service is not emphasized at SFWoA.

Hey Gonch, I know its probably old news but did your wife ever call SF about your Trip From Heck to SFWoA 2 years ago? I just read the TR thats linked above and was curious...

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Koaster King said:
While it's great that they're getting most of their rides in operation, they listened to RWB complaints and retracked it, and most general things have been worked out...

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Did their retracking only the 2nd half of the ride cut their complaints in half, or did they double because people have seen how much fun that ride could be if it didn't hurt you?

In all honesty, Danny, I think your whole view of SFWoA is marred by your seemingly hateful views of Cedar Point. You're one of very few people I've ever met that has said that Cedar Point is a bad park, yet the only reason you've given is that it was "too crowded" on your weekend visits in peak season. Can we say "duh?"

Personally, I've been to SFWoA once since the SF takeover and that was this season. My SFWoA pass saw more action in California and New Jersey than it did here in Ohio, and there's a damn good reason for that. The park is dirty, it's poorly planned for people flow, the rides are poorly maintained (I've never seen a B&M shuffle before this summer), the staff is hardly friendly nor efficient, and the place is over-hyped in the media.

SFWoA could be a total and absolute gem if they'd fix the problems I cited. Take a cue from PKI and listen to your guests and make management decisions based on their feedback. That alone is the reason I didn't hesitate one second to renew my PKI pass for '04. It's a 3.5 to 4 hour drive for me and it's worth every second of it... unless some psychopath decides to drag me on their favorite looping wooden coaster. ;)

Amen, John! I think people forget how much PKI really kind of sucked in the late 90's. They've made a massive turn around and I too make that three-hour drive a couple of times a year.

And speaking of drives, it's not just the rides that keep us driving six hours to Holiday World year after year. What do you suppose it might be?

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Thrillerman said:
You know it's funny, I've had some of the worst park experiences of my life at Cedar Point, not Six Flags... To say you won't go back until they build something new sounds childish and immature. That's not the appropiate attitude for a true coaster enthusiast.

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Your first point is irrelevant, because it's not Cedar Point that's suffering attendance shock. Your second point isn't even a point. I'm childish and immature because I won't go back after bad experiences? Do you accept mediocrity in your life? Do you spend money on things that are sub-par because it's the "mature" thing to do? Because I'm an enthusiast I should apply rules devoid of common sense? Yeah, Wall Street did that with dot-coms too, and a lot of people lost a fortune. Pissing away your disposable income on things not worth it (worth it to your own self, not someone else) seems a lot more "childish" to me.

This isn't an emotional issue. While far from being cheap, I still don't toss money at things that I don't think are worth it. I drive an extra mile passing the closer grocery store because the distant one has better selection and always has more registers open, even if they're not always the cheapest.

I'm a travel enthusiast too, but I don't fly ValuJet because they're giving it the ol' college try. The name is different, but I know they used to be AirTran. They'll have to land a lot of planes successfully before I'll fly with them.

So here's an idea. Why don't we stick to analyzing the problems regarding Six Flags Worlds of Adventure, and try for a moment not to make it about Cedar Point or the number of notches on my maturity belt. That would be fun.

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ShaneDenmark said:
Hey Gonch, I know its probably old news but did your wife ever call SF about your Trip From Heck to SFWoA 2 years ago?

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You know, I don't think any of us ever did get around to calling. One of those things where we were on vacation (drove from Jacksonville to check out X-Flight that year) and just kind of cooled off about it.

We did go back in 2002 but only because we drove right by on our way home from CP.

The sick thing is, that when I renew my pass next month, it will be my 4th consecutive year with a SFWOA pass, yet I've only been to the park twice.

Isn't that almost the ultimate statement - you have a 4 year season pass holder who's only been to your park twice!

Now that we're in Pittsburgh, we probably will stop by at some point in 2004. This thread is really making me curious about that potential trip. I guess we'll see.

Nahhh Jeff. That would be boring. ;)

Seriously though, I agree with spending money on the better product. However, why would you even enter SFWoA's gates just because they got a shiny new ride? If I had as much disgust with the park as you do, I wouldn't give one cent of my money to the park just to try out a new ride.

Fortunately for the northern Ohio folks here, you have more than one option in amusement parks which makes not visiting one due to unsatisfactory conditions easier to do.

Thank god SFGAm is a well run park or else us windy city peeps would have to drive hours to get in some thrill time. :) *** Edited 12/24/2003 7:44:49 AM UTC by Chitown***

Since when was PKI relevant to the subject? I'm tired of this insignificant mumbo jumbo. Talk about tongue-in-arse cheek. ;)

I wrote this before your maturity belt was worn out and CP was thrown out the window, so here's my Dear John letter.

John, you suck (and totally rule at the same time)! "Shake yo jiggy Miss Piggy!" ;)

1. About Raging Wolf Bobs, I know they only retracked half of it for 2003 (I have *no* idea if this was the "fault" of a SF decision or the company retracking), but I was well under the impression that the second half would be retracked for 2004. Is that correct? I also believe that it was known way before the season started that they were only retracking half of the ride for each year. And it's a lot better than doing nothing at all.

2. To say that I think CP is "bad" is a complete and total overstatement. I remember telling you and Kristin this year at PKI that I had one of my best trips ever to the park this season even though I didn't get to ride Dragster, an op yelled at me in the Corkscrew line for taking a drink up the stairs (when did they take trash cans out of the station??), I got change back for a 20 instead of a 10 at Coasters (not like it was hurting me, but of course I gave the extra 5s back), and hearing a Wildcat op talk about blow jobs. It was all quite funny though, every bit of it, so I think this allowed the "amusement" to go back into Cedar Point. I had some friends with me who had never been to the park before and they were baffled by the awful (non-existant??) theming and ride that was Disaster Transport (in their description, I think it's campy fun) and we had some good laughs there. We're all photo workers at PKI (as you know) and we thought the photo guys at CP were some of the most lifeless and clueless people on the planet. We got ready to buy pictures at Magnum and the only worker there went to the restroom right as we were walking up! Another classic moment and strangely none of this bothered or annoyed me when it completely should have. The absurdity bothered me and the positive randomness that we could laugh about worked, so I wasn't about to let any of it get to me. So, that's not my only reason. Check your memory at the door if I actually told you that stuff (I didn't tell you everything that happened, but I know I said many good things) and if you've been reading my posts the last two years. "Duh!" ;)

3. The visits before that I didn't like didn't so much have to do with crowds. Although the insanely wide midways constipated with people is something I'm not a huge fan of, the lines when I had a chance to visit were way too long. If you're allowed to have a bad day and dislike aspects of SFWOA, I sure as shat better be able to say I disliked aspects of certain CP visits. I don't get a chance to visit on every good day. That's when I could go and that's when I had less than great times. While the park was so busy and filled with guests, the atmosphere was really pulled down and the park felt "dead" and fake. I don't know exactly what it was, but I just didn't get a great vibe. Some of the employees can be nice, but when they're rude, they're mean and nasty. It's like, "You're welcome here, but take a wrong step and I'll tear you apart!!" Some coaster notes- Mean Streak used to be one of my favorite wooden coasters, dropped to my least favorite until I rode Hercules and Raging Wolf Bobs (I think it's worse! haha). CCMR and Iron Dragon are largely bores. I love, love, love Raptor and Magnum though. MF and BS are perfect for the whole family. Wildcat is fun-filled and intense and you may get a surprise history of blow jobs to boot! I think Cedar Point is a wonderful park that has mountains of excellent pieces. I didn't like all the pieces, so while I would recommend the park and go back again, it's not one of my favorites.

4. SFWOA is *not* a wonderful park. Like I said before, as far as my favorites go, CP and SFWOA would be neck-and-neck with SFWOA getting the slight edge. Read back through my posts in this thread and posts earlier in the year... Compared to what I used to think of CP a couple years ago, I practically have raved about it this year. There's that difference between Bests and Favorites. And to break it up further than you, I would have a different list between Best Operations and Best Park (rides, atmosphere, food, shows, etc.). CP would undoubtedly be high on both Best lists while SFWOA would be high on Best Park. I may be a little "off" about some of these things, but I do give credit where it's due. ;)

5. There's a rumored decision that PKI ride operations has supposedly made that a lot of enthusiasts (some may even *snap*) will be extremely upset about if true. I hope it's not, but very reliable People Who Find Out (tm) have told me so...

6. The Son of Beast comment... absolutely hysterical! I know *several* people that would love to read that and sympathize with you *cough* loriu *cough*. I didn't make you guys go on it this year... And I went in the Mummy's Tomb with you while I was having major bathroom issues! LOL

Nah, that's definitely not the ultimate statement at all Gonch. I know people who have "renewed" with SFKK in the same way you have for at least 3 years and only went twice (maybe even once). But it's a good deal when your New Jersey park is charging multiples of the price.

This is fun when we actually have some good conversation going.

Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas everyone!

-Danny

Before I run out and finish my Christmas buying for my wife... ;)

Sticking with the original subject of SFWoA "Continuing" to plummet. Is it REALLY plummeting? I'm not trying to discuss 2001 or previous years.

And all CP and any other park asside.

If SFWoA did X amount in 2002 (which everyone...including myself say it was a bad year) and you throw in the whole 9-11 no one traveling, etc. Then 2003 they say they did X-7%.

After talking/reading/going with people to SFWoA. And talking to two people at the Cleveland Plain Dealer. It still doesn't sound right. Yes, we know this is all estimates, but the estimates don't even sound close. I do know that numbers were inflated in the old days. But I'm just wondering about 2002 and 2003. For those who did go to the park this year/or worked there. It seems that 2002 (that bad year) would have to be inflated and 2003 would have to be drastically deflated. The parked was packed this year.

Weather excuses aside. They had a huge draws for the the concerts/new 2003 events/picnics and according park Spokeswoman/employees the best FrightFest results ever.

After talking to people and seeing it myself. I find it VERY hard to believe these numbers. So why the 7% posting than. I'm not trying to get back into that whole "employees/trash/etc" I'm wondering just the "#"

What would have been the logistics behind say a -8% or just -1%? Maybe to hold off and come guns a blazing. Maybe make more money in the long run...Because they had to make a profit in 2003 or pretty darn close (even with a lot of free days.) Speaking of free does SF or any other park count turnstyles or actual tickets sold (including selling them at 1/2 off)?

Just some things I'm wondering.

Anyway, I hope everyone has a great Christmas and enjoy the Holidays with your friends!

"The Future of Roller Coasters"
-RollerCoasterGod
http://OhioThemeParks.com

Wow, another evening of interesting posts...and I have read through them all.

One thing strikes me though. As "enthusiasts" we supposedly know more than the average guest, or perhaps have more expereiences that allow us to compare and contrast parks. So, many of the things thrown out as arguments for or against the park are things the average guest wouldn't even think about.

Jeff said it best, the attendance drop has nothing to do with the .001% of the enthusiasts discussing this.

So, what does the average person see that makes them not want to go back to the park?

1) Trash. I have witnessed this for myself and I have heard countless complaints about it. (And Jeff you are right, the 90's at PKI was pretty awful, particularly when it comes to trash.) Trash gives an amusement park a "carnival" feel if you ask me. What a simple thing that WoA could correct, too. I am not sure if I have ever seen a "tie" from WoA bend down and pick up trash but we all know Kinzel and other CP managers are famous for it. It starts at the top, no?

I would say the average person notices trash.

2) Capacity. I don't buy this argument. I don't think the average guest knows if a ride has 2 or 3 trains or understands why one might not be operating. The average guest knows how long their wait is and it is comparable most of the time (if not better than) to Cedar Point.

3) Perceived value. I think the average guest can understand it and I have gone on record as saying the value of a marine park, ride park, water park all in one ticket is very good. This can't be a determining factor.

4) Employee contacts/customer service. Another area WoA gets slapped around for. What are the major differences between the staff at WoA and Cedar Point? Average age for one. A good percentage of CP employees is 17 or older as they are required to be graduated from HS (or 18 and up) to live in housing. And, I think they house some 3,000 kids. The housing for WoA is inadequate (very far from the work location) and a small percentage of employees use it. Most employees at WoA commute via car or bus to work.

I don't know how much business the WoA campground does but maybe the park really should consider building some onsite dorms and start doing some college recruiting ala CP.

Customer Service must be a goal from the top down, too, and I don't get that sense at WoA.

5) Clientele. Here is an interesting topic. Because of the relatively cheap season pass you do get a lot of people using WoA as a "summer camp" service. There are a lot of kids running around that park by themselves all day long. And, they aren't the sweetest kids. For me personally that makes for an uncomfortable day. For a kid to even get into Cedar Point they have to either drive or ride with someone old enough to drive. There is no bus stop at the front gate.

Disney said it bluntly during my training. I was told flat out that they set their ticket prices to some extent in order to keep certain "undesirables" (their words, not mine) out of the park.

I do think that guests are oftentimes affected by those around them. I don't mind huge crowds when I feel safe. But, I don't like even the shortest lines if I feel unsafe.

These are just a few topics. Reflect and discuss amongst yourselves. *** Edited 12/24/2003 1:32:34 PM UTC by wahoo skipper*** *** Edited 12/24/2003 3:01:51 PM UTC by wahoo skipper***