Six Flags WoA attendance continues to plummet.

Right on, Sean. Maybe you can relate to this since you were there too, but do you remember media day for 2000 up there, with the new rides? I remember we were all pretty impressed, maybe even blown away.

After that, what happened? For me personally, I saw a lot of indifference to safety, operation and upkeep. That's a far cry from virtually everywhere else I've been in the last few years. Given the choice, why would I subject myself to that again?

Jeff,

I would say I really was blown during the 2000 media day. To be honest, it stayed that way for quite a while. I remember how proud the park was heard one park official say, "We have always kind of been looked at as the underdog in regards to Cedar Point. Now we are moving up and we are so excited!"

I was excited for them. I loved those new rides so much that I didn't really notice the negative side of things until it personally effected me. It just wasn't one incident but many.

I really do hope the best for the park. If they could make my visit comparable to the first couple of time I visted the park as SFO, I would be there more than once every year.

-Sean (SF pass-less for 2004 as well)

The only thing I still find strange is the whole %7 drop in attendance this year? From being there MANY days since 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003 I have seen the worse in the park and some of the best things. This year was BY FAR some of the best hands down. Yes, as always stated they have room to improve. I'm just wondering how in the world they could have logically gone down 7% from 2002? Almost anyone you talked to, that worked at the park would say the crowds were practically double that of last year (feel wise.) The water park was WAYYy more packed this year than last, Big Dipper had waits this year...with two train operation, Stadiums were full, etc. etc. etc. I know we can talk about past years, and all the mistakes, but as one who has gone to the park MANY times this year, I would say with out a doubt it had higher attendance than last year. I'm still scratching my head over the 7% decrease. Yeah, it rained all over Ohio. But those months were dead in previous years due to bad things. This year, I would say the park moved up some much needed notches in things to fix. I knows these are estimates, but what kind of estimates. I would like to see the formula the park used. It's just strange after seeing the park operate this year compared to others.

"The Future of Roller Coasters"
-RollerCoasterGod
http://OhioThemeParks.com
*** Edited 12/23/2003 4:21:04 AM UTC by RollerCoasterGod***

Notice the running theme in this thread:

"I went. Crap happened. I went back and got more crap. I went back one more time and still more crap. I'm not going back"

Is it really that big of a mystery as to why attendance drops with each year?

What the scary part is that if the customer sees it, then why don't the people in charge?

In my opinion SFWOA is the most underrated park out there. I went on June 7th of this year and was blown away. It was a very pretty park, killer location, was a great place for the entire family. I agree with a previous statement that Cedar Point just has out coasters, and out thrilled SFWOA because usually bigger is better in the public eye, but in my eyes the smaller @ SFWOA are far more supperior than rides offered @ CP. Villain kicks any of the woodies / wood & Steel coasters a$$S @ CP, and BKF is WAY better than Mantis, and S: UE is just as good as Wicked Twister, but SFWOA just doesn't have the height to compare.
One thing is for sure, SFWOA has secured me as an annual visitor even though I live 2000 away in AZ.

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coasterkid16 said:

I agree with a previous statement that Cedar Point just has out coasters, and out thrilled SFWOA because usually bigger is better in the public eye, but in my eyes the smaller @ SFWOA are far more supperior than rides offered @ CP.

Uh, CP having taller or better coasters have nothing to do with SFWOA's low attendance. Neither does being "out thrilled" having anything to do with it either.

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Do you honestly think CP has no bearing whatsoever on SFWoA's attendance?

-Nate

The problem is that in 2001, Geauga Lake promised Disney World and delivered Family Funways. In the process, they invited people to compare them to Cedar Point.

Unfortunately for them, people did. People took them up on the challenge, and decided that Cedar Point is a better park.

Hoe much better off would they have been if they had promised Geauga Lake...and delivered Geauga Lake with animals. Under-promise and over-deliver is a classic recipe for success. Over-promise and under-deliver is a classic recipe for failure.

Unfortunately, they have lost a significant portion of their audience for the forseeable future. Lots of people went to Geauga Lake in 2001 and 2002 and had a miserable time. How do they ever expect to get those people back as customers? If you chase away a customer, he may never come back again!

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I think Dave has hit it right on the head. I think it has more to do with people being disappointing by what was advertised and marketed as opposed to being impressed by it. I would say a similar thing happened with TR:TR at PKI. While a fairly good ride, the park completely overhyped it as the ultimate themed thrill ride experience anywhere and guests expected a lot, rode, and decided it wasn't really worth their time (in line in this case).

It's not like it's the most hideously run park in the business and I think enthusiasts expected a lot from them as well. While it's great that they're getting most of their rides in operation, they listened to RWB complaints and retracked it, and most general things have been worked out, I think they just need to really retrain staff and work on their safety and ops views like Jeff mentioned. I do think they've improved over their worst points between '01 and '02, but I would like to see them show they're trying to make the guest experience better. It's not like all that's a great marketing advantage, but they'll get guests to come back and get good word of mouth back around. That's the best they can do right now and if they decide to put a major new ride or coaster in, operations better be on overdrive and overachievement when it opens.

-Danny

I have said my peace many times over on SFWofA, and yes, I would consider stepping up to the plate to be a manager here, but SF itself and their attendance figures is one main reason for the shortfalls.

First off, I think they count every turnstyle turn as a visit. When you undercut everbody with a ridiciously low priced season pass, people by it for pure value and posession, not vacation convienence.

People in the Cleveland metro area have taken to Six Flags as a local hang out, which was not allowed at Sea World. Example: What are we doing today? Well, after we hit the mall, lets go to SF and ride Batman and get fries and hang out. Well, now when weather is in the crapper, no one made it out of the mall, or their house, or the Flats, or any other place.

The entire Six Flags empire has become way to dependent on season passes, and that means they must have repeat visitor after repeat visitor to drive parking, food, retail, and games.

They virtually let everyone in the park free, providing a babysitting service, with adds to lines for food, restrooms, and everything else that makes a family think twice about showing up on a weekend, let alone a potentially rainy day. No one is going to leave Pittsburgh with bad weather approaching.

Look at other parks and their pass prices. Disney, Morey's Piers, and others are all outrageous. Kennywood does not even have one, and never will. Several other park owners are ready to stop selling them. This is not a year-round operation like Universal that needs repeats to drive retail per caps and special events.

SFWofA has a superior product with the Marine Life section. They need to promote the **** out it, open the parking lot everyday on the Sea World side for pass holders, as the family memebers with the moneywant the shows.

Stop with the wildlife section crap, and just do what Sea World did. Entertain the masses. Move Hurrican Harbor to the North parking lot at Sea World, put a nice IMAX show and a good funhouse or dark ride in the spot, and up that pass price to market value.

And yes, their once great Halloween gig has taken lumps, and CP and KP have better programs. Every SF is dealing with intense shoulder season competition, and not manager has the stones to call Kieran on the phone and tell them. Time to upgrade the whole holiday, or maybe focus on kids for a change. Its not rocket science.

All of a sudden, SF has forced their poker hand and Cedar Point finds itself without even a pair. No fun house, IMAX, and no live animal shows. Wow, guests now have another world class park to visit in Ohio, land of all-nite bowling and pancake houses. Life suddenly got better in the midwest.

Have a great holiday! *** Edited 12/23/2003 7:52:39 AM UTC by Agent Johnson***

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coasterdude318 said:
Do you honestly think CP has no bearing whatsoever on SFWoA's attendance?

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I think CP totally affects their attendance - SFWOA should be thankful that they're just a hour down the road. I know I've hit WOA just because it's "on the way" to CP. Think of how bad off they'd be if CP wasn't that close! ;)

(the winky face signifies a tongue-in-cheek comment, kids)

Well, I am glad that in my absence overnight this, for the most part, stayed above the SF Bashing it could have degenerated to.

In that spirit, what types of things do you think can be done to bring that park up to snuff? Again, some honest, fair answers are what I am looking for.

I don't know how you undo the combination of the two parks. While I think it was a horrible decision to combine them I think it would be a catastrophe if they tried to separate them again. It would be a PR nightmare.

The comments about the "cheap" season passes are interesting. I agree that it has become a "hang out". Heck, when I was a kid that is exactly what my parents did. They got me a season pass and we basically went whenever we felt like it. But, we didn't spend much money when we were there.

The kicker though is that even though we "hung out" at GL we still paid to visit Sea World once or twice a year. And now we are back to the problem with the combined parks.

Does anyone know how group sales did this year? Were there big corporate events or did those people give up on the park too?

Seriously though, what kinds of things (short of building more coasters which obviously isn't the answer) can the park do?

Things the park can do:

(1) Run the rides to capacity. When there is a >30 minute wait for a coaster running 2 out of 3 trains, and only 3 ride-ops manning it, and every train stacks for a minute, it sucks. Running at capacity would give the ride-ops some pride in their ride, and maybe they'd smile occasionally.

(2) Clean the park, DAILY. Those walls of chewing gum just don't do it for me.

(3) Put some better signage up to show people where the entrances to the ride entrances are (not a typo, I mean the entrances to the entrances).

I bought a season pass for 2003, and went exactly twice. The first time was OK (which is why I upgraded to a SP), but the second time was so bad I stayed for 2 1/2 hours and left.

For me, it absolutely does boil down to CP vs SFWOA. Both parks are about the same distance away, and for damn sure even my worst CP experience pales in comparison to the kind of frustrating nightmare I had on my 2nd visit to SF.

Not going back soon.

Steve

Fixing the park is the easy part.

Clean everything, and keep it clean. Rest rooms in particular.

Make a committment to park maintenance. Perform the routine maintenance properly and the corrective maintenance promptly so that everything runs.

Make a committment to ride operations. Operate rides at capacity. Concentrate on moving people efficiently and safely. Have ride operators check their cell phones at the gate. Make sure that all rides staff know the real ride and park policies and are not making up rules on the spot.

See all those people coming in the front gate? Those are "customers". Those are the people who, whether they use a day-ticket or a season pass, are paying for the whole operation. They are the most important people in the operation and should be treated as such.

That's the easy part. The complicated part is figuring out how to convince all the people they've chased away that they've changed!

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

One point that has been overlooked is that attendence figures are ESTIMATED, not exact. I myself visited WoA more this year than last. The addition of a parking pass was the main reason. The parking tickets in 2001/2002 were a horrible idea. I would say it was without a doubt busier each visit this year than last. Especially at Halloween time. I am their on both opening and closing day each year, and I had a friend visiting from England this year. I told her it wouldnt be that busy on closing day at SFWoA... WRONG. I would honestly say I have to disagree with the figures. How many times did we hear that both parking lots were filled to capacity, and people were parking on the street. It has happened. They have two VERY LARGE lots, and to have both filled means a LOT of people.

1ej

There was at least one big corporate buyout that I know of. Progressive bought out a Sunday in September. It was a pretty good time: short lines, free pop, good friends. The bad thing was that they scheduled it for the opening day of the NFL season. *** Edited 12/23/2003 5:44:26 PM UTC by ShiveringTim***

Yeah for the Progressive day, I basically went to get my $30 sp (not to use at SFWOA in '04), we were in by 10 rode all coasters except mind eraser, walked through the wildlife side really quick then hit the road at about 12:15 to get down to the game. I hope progressive does the same thing next year with cheap SP passes, that would probably be the only time I visit in '04 other than to process my '04 pass.

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1EyedJack said:
One point that has been overlooked is that attendence figures are ESTIMATED, not exact.

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Yeah... they're too high. I'll never say where I heard it, but they do share numbers around the chain, so there are a lot of people in the company that know the real story. AB's "estimate" was 200k too high.

Stories like this one from GTTP certainly don't make me feel better about the park.

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Coasterzak said:
I worked as casual labor at Six Flags this year and intend on working at Cedar Point for the summer of 2005. I was very disappointed with working at SFWoA. Not to get into specifics, but I think they broke just about every child labor law with me that they possibly could. Everything was very sloppy and unprofessional. Because they were scrapping for workers, towards the end of the season I was operating coasters without even completing a ride operators 101 course. All I knew was this button did this and that button did that.

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Yeah, but the same can be said about CP. Both parks hire MANY bands/cheerleaders/clubs/etc. to help in the early months and the later months. And I'm not talking to do band, or cheerlead. Both parks (and many other national parks) use these kids to help with, sweeping, cleaning the pools (Sweeping Snake River Falls pool...and Sweeping SFWoA Log Ride Pool). I know, I did both those jobs my Senior Year in band. And I know other area groups that still do it. This past year, I noticed CP "seemed" to have more outside help than other years early in May. The parks like it because it's cheap for them and the kids like it because it's VERY quick money for them for trips/uniforms/etc. Both parks have MANY age limits to who can do what(ie. Sweep the ground/use a fryer/clean a table/drive a monorail/etc.) I can assure you for both parks, they do check ID's and more. Here in the great state of Ohio people would be all over them if they were illegally doing something...at least Carl Monday would ;) Though I know sometimes they do seem very young. CP more or less "hides" their extra hands (ie. they will put them in the way back of the park or side midways.) Running the rides is not the Rocket Science. It's the idiots who get on the rockets and loose all common sense God gave them.

"The Future of Roller Coasters"
-RollerCoasterGod
http://OhioThemeParks.com *** Edited 12/23/2003 8:50:02 PM UTC by RollerCoasterGod***