SFKK posts hint for 2005...

Wait a minute...CrazyB, not tring to pick on you or anything, just trying to clear up what might just be my misunderstanding...but first you say about Disney, "...thier money base comes from name recognition not ride recognition...", but you go on to say that because of this, SFNO should focus on adding rides. That seems sort of counterintuitive, by the logic you seem to advocate.

By the way, I COMPLETLY agree that SF needs to work on name recognition. While the name alone does help many of the parks (I'm not sure of the exact numbers but I do know at SFA and SFNO attendance went up over 100% the year they were flagged), the conotations to the name are continually going down hill. Many people are slowly starting to connect "Six Flags" with slow/lazy opperators, limited opperations, and poor decisions overall.

Adding rides is a temporary and expensive solution to slow or dropping attendance when the real problem is poor customer service. A new ride will bring in a surge of people, but it will only hold until the ride loses interest with the public. On the other hand, improving customer service will increase repeat visitors, season pass sales, and word of mouth advertising. Not to mention, happy guests are more willing to spend money in the park.

I'm not sure if I speak for everyone or not, but in my opinion, if my home Six Flags park, no matter where I lived, had a choice of spending $15 million on a new coaster or $15 million on park renovations, paint, landscaping, and most importantly ride operations and staff efficiency on par with Disney or Cedar Point, I'd pass up the coaster in a heartbeat and go for the improved customer services.

Six Flags doesn't need to work on name recognition. Most everyone has seen the national commercials and knows who SF is. If you want to know what they need to work on scroll back to Shaggy's excellent post on Page 2.

mOOSH

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+Danny said:
Btw Nate, I think it's kind of unfair to say that "coasters upon coasters" is "especially not working at SFKK" when they haven't added a major coaster since 1998 (a record year I believe- can't find figures) and a major ride since 1999 (1.3 million attendance).

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But look at what happened when the park did try adding coaster upon coaster:

1995: T2
1997: Chang
1998: Twisted Twins
2000: Roadrunner Express

Four coasters in a six year period, and the highest attendance ever was just 1.3 million. This article (which is an interesting read, btw) says that Kentucky Kingdom was expected to draw 2-2.5 million people each year, yet Kentucky Kingdom has only managed to draw half that. It's clear, then, that the big mistake was that Kentucky Kingdom tried to play with the majors when it couldn't afford to (and didn't have the attendance to justify it). Look at what successful parks with simliar attendance have done.
-Wild Adventures: cheap coasters, with an emphasis on the family
-Kennywood: since 1995, two major new coasters, emphasis on flat rides
-Lagoon: Two cheap family coasters since 1995

See the difference? Kentucky Kingdom added some *huge* rides and it had little affect on attendance, and certainly nothing long-term. Look at Chang, for instance. Other parks with rides that big have three times the attendance of Kentucky Kingdom. Then the park built Twisted Twins, effectively spending double what they had to in order to build a new wooden coaster (why in the world was it necessary, or even intelligent, for a park that size to build a dueling wooden coaster???).

My point is that just because you spend like you're one of the majors doesn't make you one of them. Adding the same rides that parks with 2-3 million guest each season didn't even come close to achieving those numbers for Kentucky Kingdom. Why? Because just adding coasters doesn't work. The last thing SFKK needs is another expensive thrill ride. They have tried it, and it doesn't work.

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CrazyB said:
SFNO has been going downhill as far as attendance this past season, mostly due to just flat out arrogant ride ops and poor cutomer service...To raise our attendance level we need something that sells much like a new ride or need i say waterpark..

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Does anyone else see the obvious problem in this quote? How can your post start off so right and end up so wrong?

-Nate
*** Edited 11/17/2004 8:05:59 PM UTC by coasterdude318***

I suppose I would too take better customer service over a new coaster. But for a company whose online application asks for nothing in the way of criminal record or references, well, you get what you ask for. I'm not saying SF employees are criminals and I'm sure that they check that at an interview, but until they get someone else up in the CEO position things won't change. They ought to do what Snyder was considering and sell more parks. Let Cedar Fair be the dominant coaster operator. They do just fine. However, I would have to say that installing so many coasters towards the end of the 90s and early in this decade was perhaps a bad idea. Perhaps you could say that the general public expects more and since they aren't getting any they are taking their business elsewhere. However, I'm not going to use that as a blanket to cover up poor customer service. *** Edited 11/17/2004 8:39:18 PM UTC by sirloindude***

But I dont think that SFI is in an "either..or" position. At this point, they need *both*. First and foremost, they need to work on guest relations, anyone who cant see that, doesnt *want* to see it. But because their brand has been 'tainted' they need to give people a reason to visit to *see* the 'new and improved' C/S. Really, if they improve C/S alone, it wont matter much because too many people are already staying away. If they just plop down a new ride, people will visit, see the same-ol' same-ol' and leave with a bitter taste. So it's time for both to be displayed.

Why this is taking so long is beyond me. Maybe their locations are extremely un-conducive to find good workers, but I highly doubt that!
lata, jeremy

I think SFA is in an area unconducive to good employees. Save one or two, I don't think I've ever met that many great employees there. *** Edited 11/19/2004 4:33:06 PM UTC by sirloindude***

Maybe their locations are extremely un-conducive to find good workers, but I highly doubt that!

I'm sure in the big cities there are lots of other opportunities to be paid better, treated better, *and* have better work conditions.

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Hilarious.

They really do need SOMETHING to put on T.V. Commercials in order to get people to go there, and that something can't be new paint and customer service. People who were dissatisfied with the park in the past are not going to return unless they see that there is a big shiney new ride to go on.

*** Edited 11/17/2004 5:02:46 AM UTC by Word***

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Word,

I have spent about twelve years of my life working in advertising and in that time I've constructed more than a few successful advertising campaigns and you don't need a big glitzy item to bring more people in the door. You see what SFKK (and SF to a lesser extent) needs to do is first off clean the park up, make it more family friendly (a family of 4 spends way more than four teenagers visiting the park), raise the bar significantly on what they expect of their employees and their employees attitudes and then do what's in the industry is known as an "image" ad. Their real problem isn't rides because they have a great assortment for everyone. Their real problem is image and once a business has a bad one which they do they have to work hard to correct it.

If I were running the show, or at least what I've spent my life doing which is advertising I'd do what I listed above and just run ads for one showing the cleaned up park and discussing their new attitude and highlighting the fact that people and families in Louisville don't need to drive for hours east or west for a fun day at a park because they have one right in their backyard. An image ad campaign won't have the enthusiasts frothing at the mouths but combined with improving the park which is depressing to visit because it's in such a sad shape my wife Carrie refuses to visit it anymore an image campaign will bring the locals in and maybe put a small dent in the number of them heading to my home town (aka: Santa Claus, IN).

Of course I doubt that Six Flags will change anything over there and that no matter what they add their attendance will still stagnate.

Oh, BTW I'm curious how much of SFKK's attendance figures are artifically boosted by the KY State Fair because I have never seen the park anything other than dead and I've been there on Saturdays in the start of the season, in the "busy time" of July/August and for Frightfest and each time the park resembels a grave yard.

Have Fun

Paul Drabek

Thanks for the nod 'Moosh.

Re: the backward SF strategy...

I guess I have always thought of business dealings in a very straight forward, common-sense sort of way.

For instance... replace the idea of a park with a resterant.

Let's say I go to dinner at a steakhouse and eat one of the best steaks I have ever had. However the server is rude and un-informed, the bathrooms are messy, I have to wait an excruciatingly long time to get a table, it's full of unruly patrons, and general upkeep is poor. Do I go back?

No... because the negatives far outweigh the positives.

What if the steakhouse is part of a chain. Do I try others in the chain?

Sure.

But what if the others I go to are just as poorly operated?

Well, then I quickly summize that the chain as a whole is not properly managed, poorly operated and basically not worth my time and money.

Now say they add a brand new 28 oz prime rib to the menue. Does that change the appeal to me?

Well sure, the steak appeals to me, but my mind is quickly reminded of the surrounding by which that steak is presented. Suddenly that steak is not at all appealing to me.

Why? Because the overall poor mental satisfaction overrides the temporary sensory pleasure I got from the initial good steak.

That's how I percieve general business practice.. specifically the theme park industry.

SF ultimately should be the leaders in their field. They own more properties, staff more employees and have the most diverse collection of rides and attractions in the business. Yet they are consistantly viewed as the worst parks in the industry. They are reactive rather than proactive and offer up lame excuses for poor returns on ridiculous, unnecessary and non-attendance driving investments.

You see... having a BmW, Porsche and Rolls Royce serves no purpose when the owner doesn't know how to drive and maintain them.

Shaggy
*** Edited 11/17/2004 9:28:01 PM UTC by Shaggy***

Hmmmmm....steaaaaaaaak!

In all seriousness, I agree with Paul on the image ads. Who has seen the Walmart commercials showcasing their employees? They give testimonials about how great it is to work there; that the opportunities to move up is good; and that they feel appreciated.

Do you know why Walmart runs those commercials? Those aren't recruiting ads. Walmart has suffered more than a few blows to its image. Many cities will not allow Walmart to build stores because they feel the chain runs out small, local merchants and creates traffic problems. They've also had some issues in some states with worker pay and benefits.

Those ads are to influence opinions about their image, and not just to the consumer.

That, along with an overhaul of their employee wage and benefit program, is what will help Six Flags.

YMMV.

Nate, while I think you know it wasn't Six Flags decision to add Chang (were they even the ones that gave the go-ahead for Twisted Sisters?), I think expectations by Ed Hart in 1997 for the park to reach 2.2 million in attendance (ever) is a little outrageous. I'm not even sure how well the marketing was at that time and that might have had something to do with it. I remember hearing in Cincinnati about Chang and Twisted Sisters opening around that time, but most people I knew that went to the park thought Kings Island was better and didn't feel the need to go back down there until they did something better than PKI... If they can't draw from Cincinnati due to PKI, they don't really have that much hope unless they do something better.

I don't even think Chang and Twisted Twins are that great to keep me coming back, even if I lived in the area. They're good *support*, but that park is still missing a steel headliner that will keep people reriding and coming back. Even if service was good, how much do you care about going back except for some select mediocrity?

Call me crazy, but if I ran the park, I would be using my budget in 2005 on customer service and getting the park to look it's best and adding a steel hyper (thinking SFDL, SFA, SFNE) in 2006 and market the heck out of it. I don't think there's anything else they can do to get out of the shadows. Maybe they could go for the family and waterpark thing, but HW and PKI seem all of that... Maybe the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" is what would be best. I have no idea.

Now that we established me as crazy, I don't think KK was silly in adding T2, RRE, or even TS for that matter. All kinds of parks the same size or smaller have added mice, two+ CCIs (maybe not in the same year), and SLCs including Wild Adventures, Holiday World, Mt. Olympus, Magic Springs, many of the SF parks before they were flagged, etc. Chang cost $12 million, which I think was the biggest attempt to play with the big boys. It didn't work as well as Ed had hoped, but like I said, I don't know how good the marketing was, I don't know how many people even cared to reride it or come back to the park after they realized it was so lacking overall, and so on.

IMO, KK (without the Flags) has only really tried playing big once and it was with a ride that isn't very reridable, isn't very exciting, isn't very fun, scares away people afraid/who don't like standing/looping, etc. It's just a silly coaster to base any future decisions on. I think Six Flags *did* "learn from the mistakes" though. Even if I think there's deeper mistake to Chang that just the cost compared to what attendance came in. ;)

Maybe they should spend a few more years building themselves up, but with adding so little in the past few years and still getting that million attendance and profit off not doing much every year, I would probably continue that as long as they're holding the same amount of interest. It's not a bad park, it's just really... nothing special.

From my experiences, I'm often surprised at how many people have problems with SF and then I think about how many people disagree with me when I talk about *my* "SF" that starts with a C instead of an S... ;)

+Danny *** Edited 11/17/2004 10:21:34 PM UTC by +Danny***

Sorry if I confused everyone. its just that at SFNO the Customer service is pathetic and after the last 2 seasons, It hasn't improved and when you talk to the Supervisors their excuse is the money paid to the workers...I travelled to SFOG and SFAW this year and after speaking with supervisors at each park found out that they were paid less than those at SFNO but the attitude and Customer service that I recieved could not be compared, It was awesome and after visiting I am compelled to return ..I.m sure a lot of posters here have went to Disney and Universal,,I rode on the same rides I rode as a child , It wasn;t the rides that brought me back but the Customer service..SFNO has no Customer service so I thought the only way to increase attendance would be to build a shiny new toy or a waterpark ..I would be willing to bet that out 4 out of 10 patrons that visit the park have been treated rudely and probably won't return..even if they promote a advertisement campaign saying how clean our park is and New enhanced Customer service..People don't get suckered twice once bit.. As a Sf flagged park the attendance has risen but there was a huge difference from last year to this year and weather was not a determinig factor,,The people just did not show up..I would love to see this years figures..Those figures may have been the reason the posted new additions signs were abruptly pulled..

A question for Mamoosh...around your local park area is your park advertised, hotel leaflets etc..I have frequented a lot of Hotel chains in the N.O. area during business calls and I would have to say 2/3 of them don't even know we have a Sf park or have info on it.. New Orleans is a tourist town but doesn't advertise anything but Bourbon street , Mardi Gras and Cajun Cooking.. an Idea for SFNO would be to open the park during Mardi Gras and take advantage of the wall of tourist that comes here every year...The weather normally is not too bad and tourist would surely attend while in town for the parades..It could turn out to be a win win deal for SF..

Yes, you commonly find SFMM, USH, Disneyland/DCA, Legoland, and Knotts brochures in hotel lobbies here in So Cal.

SFKK is my homepark, and they did do some improvements this season. They put up fans that spray mist all over the park. And i am sure there are other things i didn't notice. I will say that Chang needs another paint job. New signs that direct guests to the attractions. As for customer service, either i just don't pay attention, or they are not as bad as everyone says they are. They seem to be no different than any other park i have been at. They do have room for a small really good coaster or 2 behind T2.

Customer service at Six Flags parks varies from place to place. I have found that I can no longer try to predict what the employees will probably be like at the next park. I have noticed that at SFFT and SFOT the employees were great, and SFAW was pretty good too. SFGAdv I hardly remember. SFA is downright horrible. However, I would find it hard to understand exactly how one markets better customer service without giving away the fact that they know they were doing a poor job in the past. I imagine some people would be like, "Oh, they didn't get it right the first time. Why should I believe them now?"

And as for the interesting topic of paint jobs, they work better than some people think, at least with me. I saw pictures of the old Ultra Twister, Batman-The Escape, and XLR-8 paint jobs and they looked to me like pieces of junk waiting to be torn apart. Now, with the vibrant color schemes on them, I find them to look cool and because of that they call to me more (well, XLR-8 could use a more intense layout). Paint jobs make the parks seem less neglected, and it does add to a better image. But customer service is and always will be the final say in how many people a park attracts. The simple fix would be a more rigorous application process. Those online applications make it easier for a 21 year old ex-con to get hired than an 18 year old mechanical engineering student at a renowned university (sorry, I had to glorify myself for a second. Seriously, I would like to think I'm relatively humble, but that's for others to decide). The application asks for little background info aside from the dire necessities.

It is pretty humiliating when I can tell Six Flags every thing that they are doing wrong, and they are all people who have college degrees in business. I'm a freshman with no business classes, and I can guarentee you I would be doing a finer job. I'd go over a business plan, but that is the type of thing one sees in an editorial, and I'm not sure I'm allowed to contribute one here. If I am, please let me know. That would be cool. Anyway, that's getting off topic. *** Edited 11/19/2004 4:29:48 PM UTC by sirloindude***

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metallgamer said:
SFKK is my homepark, and they did do some improvements this season. They put up fans that spray mist all over the park. And i am sure there are other things i didn't notice. I will say that Chang needs another paint job. New signs that direct guests to the attractions. As for customer service, either i just don't pay attention, or they are not as bad as everyone says they are. They seem to be no different than any other park i have been at. They do have room for a small really good coaster or 2 behind T2.

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Yo Metallgamer go check out my SFKK Frightfest update at Negative-G where you can see that it truly is as bad as everyone says. I have a picture of a ride op that napped for at least fifteen minutes and one of the Giant Wheel cars that has more graffitti than paint on it. It is that bad. Now I want them to improve and that's why I keep expressing myself in hopes that they will get it going.

Have Fun

Paul Drabek

Someone got picked on for spam yesterday, so I think it would be nice if you left both the link to Negative-G and the name of the site off your post. I'm not a big fan of double standards and your post is coming off as an excuse to refer to your site and your update. There are only two pictures/comments that say anything bad about the park while the rest sounds like you had a good day. I had to go through pages before I even found what you were talking about, so it would be best to directly link it to that page. I would recommend sending it to news if you haven't and you want people to see it if Jeff accepts it. That's just my opinion on the matter though. ;)

+Danny *** Edited 11/18/2004 2:31:20 AM UTC by +Danny***

Yo Metallgamer go check out my SFKK Frightfest update at Negative-G where you can see that it truly is as bad as everyone says. I have a picture of a ride op that napped for at least fifteen minutes and...

Paul, I've seen your little website pictures, and I agree with +Danny, there are only 2 times you say something bad about our park. I believe you show up @ our gate whith your little camra thinking" I wonder what kind of stuff I can get them on?" Everytime you come to SFKK, you vary rarely say anything bad about us. Speaking on safty, Who's the effin smart guy who took a camra on Skater with the EXCUSE that "The ride op gave my permission to do it" Maybe stupid crap like that is the reason you keep crying that you didn't get Regional Rep??? You always report the bad things, NEVER anything good. Or maybe it's just your all around bad attitude?

Hey Paul, refresh my memory, on your homepage, What ride are you standing in front of, and what park is it at? Oh, wait It's GL, and @ SFKK!!!! If we're so bad, why would you put a picture of yourself @ our park?

Fatguy 2 - Paul 0

( And he hits him below the belt) *** Edited 11/18/2004 3:23:41 AM UTC by Fatguy619***

(and I'm sure no one cares where you hit them)

Hey Fat Dude, here's an idea: Lurk for a couple more months, then, when You have something intelligent enough to post, come and say it. All you have done is talk out of your arse since you've been here, and incase you haven't figured it out yet, SFKK isn't the end all be all. I liked SFA better...

Jeesh!

It's not nice to call people out...

+Danny, "everyone's doing it!" =p