SFKK posts hint for 2005...

Excuse me for drifting a little off topic, But how does one get the list showing the order or attendance for the parks Sf that is..

Here's the 2003 attendance for the top 50 parks in North America. I'll have to make a minor correction to Nate's post. Six Flags New Orleans is the lowest-attended flagged SF park in the US.

Edit: Found that Jazzland's attendance in 2002 was about 400,000 and they were up 165% in 2003 (puts them around 1.06 million) and the only articles I found about SFKK said 1 million in '03, so you might be right Nate... What you said still applies to your argument no matter what. ;)

+Danny *** Edited 11/16/2004 7:55:17 PM UTC by +Danny***

Danny - I never said people couldn't or won't have good experiences at Six Flags parks. Nor did I say that people haven't or won't have bad experiences at other parks or park chains. We're not discussing other chains, we're discussing Six Flags and SFKK specifically.

Check out the other SFKK threads...you'll notice I'm always a defender of this park. I've never had a terrible experience at SFKK, although I have experienced some minor frustrations. I don't find the layout confusting. And they have two of my favorite coasters: Chang and Thunder Run.

That being said, CHAIN-WIDE the conventional wisdom has been "build it and they will come." That will only get a company so far. You have to wonder when Six Flags blames poor attendence on weather when parks in the area show increases. It just doesn't add up.

Read Shaggy's excellent post on the previous page...it sums up my feelings perfectly.

mOOSH

*** Edited 11/16/2004 7:52:27 PM UTC by Mamoosh***

Where are you looking? Neither SFKK or SFNO crack the top 50 parks in North America. Last season SFNO and SFKK were tied with around 1,000,000 guests. The difference is that SFKK has been at that level for some time, while SFNO is on its way up.

Moosh: You're (obviously) correct that coasters upon coasters isn't working chain-wide. My point was that it was especially not working at SFKK, a park that has terribly low attendance and one gigantic, very out-of-place coaster (which I realize was not Six Flag's decision).

-Nate *** Edited 11/16/2004 7:51:48 PM UTC by coasterdude318***

Nate - no worries...we're in agreement here ;)

When I said they need a big, new steelie, Greezed Lightnin' was not what I had in mind. I takes a whole lot more than a recycled Schwartzkopf shuttle loop to bring people to a park. I can guarentee you a flyer, hyper, or massive Premier LIM shuttle would bring far more people than yesterday's top-notch thriller. Greezed Lightnin' was not that bright of a choice. I don't need to ride Chang to know that it is better than Greezed Lightnin' (I've been on Astroworld's). I meant something that outdoes Chang.

Nate, I was researching that and edited before I read your post.

Moosh, looking at your post I was originally replying to, I was sort of *questioning* why attendance increases or stability wasn't working for the "good SF parks" in customer service, especially when ones like SFGAm, SFOT, and SFOG have been adding major rides/expansions in the last few years. It's not working for them either then. Maybe weather, soft tourism, not-so-great economy, etc. is to blame as well... And likely for SF competition too.

Replying to your "You have to wonder when Six Flags blames poor attendence on weather when parks in the area show increases. It just doesn't add up." on competing amusment park crowds in 2003...

Six Flags Magic Mountain- down 2% (added Scream!- blamed competition and soft tourism)
Knott's Berry Farm- down 4% (added two new flats- blamed DCA's competition and soft tourism)

Six Flags Great Adventure- down 3% (added SUF, blamed weather)
Dorney Park- down 10% (new wavepool and waterpark expansion, blamed weather)

Six Flags Darien Lake- down 4% (nothing new, blamed weather)
Paramount Canada's Wonderland- down 7% (new flat ride, blamed SARS and blackout at busiest time of year)

Six Flags St. Louis- down 4% (added flat ride, blamed weather)
Worlds of Fun- down 6%
Silver Dollar City- down 9% (blamed previous record year and CC)

Paramount's Kings Dominion- up slightly (added Drop Zone, blamed weather on not doing better)
Busch Gardens Williamsburg- down 4% (added Haunted Lighthouse and major restaurant, blamed weather)
Six Flags America- down 8% (added new water ride, blamed weather)

Paramount's Great America- up 5% (new kids area)
Six Flags Marine World- down 9% (Zonga, blamed strong competition)

So what you said was completely fair and correct? Weather seems to be consistant with the rest of the parks in the area as excuses. Some of them added rides and were down as well. Does this mean their customer service is bad too and they need to change?

Other non-SF parks that blamed weather for decreased attendance- Knoebels (-9%), Casion Pier (-6%), Morey's Piers (-5%), Carowinds (-4%), Dollywood (-6%), Hersheypark (-3%),...

The only major seasonal amusement parks (over 1.75 million for my case) that were "up" in 2003 were Cedar Point (3% with Dragster), Paramount's Kings Island (3% with Delirium and Scooby Doo), Paramount's Kings Dominion (Slightly with Drop Zone), and Paramount's Great America (5% with new kids area). Three Paramount Parks and one Cedar Fair park. The CF park added the biggest coaster in the world, so that's not surprising. PKD finally got its drop ride. PGA is marketing more to families now, which has been working well for the other PPs. PKI just doesn't stop adding things and being a marketing force like few others can be.

SF adds up to me... Unless you can find my bias in some *fuzzy math*. ;)

Note: I do realize a lot of SF parks have lower attendance than the competition and therefore, a 4% drop at Six Flags Great Creamsicle Mountain could be equal in number of people to a 7% drop at Paramount's Cedar Busch City.

+Danny, feels the need to defend the underdog... or this would get really boring and repetitive really fast

On the subject of dropping attendance, for SFDL the reason should be, "We haven't received anything good since S-ROS in 1999." I wonder if SFI forgot they even had that property.

I think "riding SFDL out" is one of the smartest things SF has ever done. YMMV. :)

Btw Nate, I think it's kind of unfair to say that "coasters upon coasters" is "especially not working at SFKK" when they haven't added a major coaster since 1998 (a record year I believe- can't find figures) and a major ride since 1999 (1.3 million attendance). I won't try to convince anyone that the park isn't in the shadows and lacking at really being the best at anything with being an hour/two hours from two of the greatest amusement parks anywhere. ;)

+Danny

You can add the one of the only coasters in the world over 400', have the only prototype of a coaster in the world, have a hyper, have over all 16 coasters, and be a huge park, but if you customer service sucks, then people will not go. A big New coasters is definitly NOT what SFKK needs, plain and simple!

I went the first time this year, like Danny was saying, I was one of those people that had ruled the park out before I got there. I only had 2 major problems with the park: It needs gallons upon gallons of paint, and customer service needs stepped up a notch. Thats not to say that I had any rude employees there, some were quite friendly, but as a whole, the employees at the park were very indifferent towards their job.

I enjoyed every coaster there (yes, including T2, its really not that bad), and after puking on a B&M standup this year, I wasn't looking forward to Chang. Its now my favorite Standup, and I ranked it pretty high. Thunder Run was one of the best woodies I've ever ridden, and Greezed Lightnin was Great (and yes, it was what the park needed. The GP have no Idea how old it is).

Their mouse was great, The one twin I rode was great, even rollerskater was great. I had a fun time at the park. They need another bridge, thats obvious. They need to seperate the park into themed areas. They need to paint the park and improve customer service. And they need to expand the water park.

But a new coaster? First, they, unlike Cedar Point, are running out of room. Second, they just got a new to them coaster, so that isn't going to probably happen right now. Waterparks are what brings in customers, and that, unlike whiney enthusiasts, is what brings in the ca$h.

To quote Danny-O, YMMV.

Clint-who has ridden less than 100 coasters, and still has a strong opinion.

"Riding SFDL out" would have been more effective had they done that elsewhere as well. It doesn't look good when such is occurring at one park but not another. Then again, the general public would probably not even be aware of it, as I'm sure most of them don't even know that much about other SF parks if they even know about them at all.

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TeknoScorpion said:
...Greezed Lightnin was Great (and yes, it was what the park needed. The GP have no Idea how old it is).

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Thanks Clint, I'll tell SFoG and SFKK that it was as big a hit as I told 'em it would be...;)
Seriously, though, compact, sit-down, steel, looper, forward AND backward travel....what DIDN'T the park get out of the "slightly used" Anton? :)

I don't think they need a new coaster, *but* I don't think a minor shuttle loop coaster proves whether a new one would be a good idea or not. ;)

I think they kind of do have to turn themselves into "the best of PKI and HW" and achieve a good middle ground before moving up. Boost up operations and customer service, add a major water ride (ProSlide Tornado?) for the waterpark, add a major flat ride (Huss Jump 2?), and move from there. Maybe even a flat ride package similar to Dollywood '05 or what SFOG/SFGAm did in 2004 would work. Their woodies are solid, their steelies are "good enough", their prices are fair... They can do better than what they're doing though even if I think they're on the right track (moving very slowly).

+Danny

sirloin, while these parks didn't reason "as much nothing", there haven't been many new additions at SFFT, SFA, SFKK, SFStL, and SFEG in the past few years.

The only parks that I think have even added a decent amount of attractions since 2001 have been SFGAdv, SFMM, SFGAm, and SFOG... oddly enough their most-attended parks. They haven't been *too* coaster crazy in '02 through '04. I've seen some improvements in customer service and left every SF park happy since... SFKK oddly enough in 2001.

+Danny

SFKK is the safest park? Yeah probably per capita gest wise because no one is ever there. Actually SFKK is the only park that I have been injured at and ended up in the ER. It was a few years ago when I still lived in Illinois. I went down alone for the day and got stapled on Chang and ended up like always the restraint comes down 1 notch during the ride and I ended up with a sprained back all because of an over zealous ride op who refused to release the restraints to losen mine up. Also about safety what about the numerous times in the last years that I have seen ride ops leaving exit gates open and then running the rides. Yep that's safe.

Honestly SFKK needs several coats of paint and some employees who take enough pride in their park to keep everything from being vandalized or written on. I actually went there with a few ride ops from another park and they were shocked at what SFKK's ride ops get away with because if they were playing basketball, sleeping or hitting on guests while on the job and on a ride to name a few they would be fired.

Have Fun

Paul Drabek

+Danny, in all fairness, SFEG got Flying coaster in 2002 and Halfpipe in 2004...two coasters in three years isn't too bad, especially for a park that really doesn't have much more room to build. SFA got Batwing in 2001 (and considering Stealth @ PGA cost $17 million, I'd guess Batwing was a similarly hefty price) and PBR in 2003 all following several years of HEAVY expansion (over $65 million from 1997-2000).

If you were to compare SFDL's situation to another SF park, the closest situation would be SFAW. Both saw their last new coaster in 1999 and both have seen only a new water ride and a flat or so since 1999. Both parks also lost a coaster in 1998, though SFAW also lost one in 2002. The difference, SFAW has seen increases in attendance over the last few years while SFDL has remained stable.

The thing people don't seem to realise about economics is that sometimes doing nothing is the best thing to do. Think of it this way, you own a chain of fast food resturants. One of your stores is in a small city of 10,000 people, the other is in the heart of a major city of 500,000 people. Your stores are doing fine, but you want to do something that will significantly increase the number of customers you have. So which store do you spend more money on for renovations if you only have a limited amount of money? It's a no brainer...the one in the major city....so why shouldn't running an amusement park be any different?

Some parks are just at a point where their annual attendance wont't rise much over the years in comparison to the local population base. On the other hand, some parks have bairly began to tap their population base. There are a lot of SF parks out there where the most economical thing to do is only add a new coaster or major attraction when the attendance is going down. Otherwise smaller attractions and other promotions can keep the attendance stable.

SFDL, SFAW, SFStL, and SFKK will all get their next makor coasters in due time, but when they do, don't expect the next major coaster for another 4 or 5 years.

Houston's a really big city. I'd think that there would be alot of people in the area.

Houston is a big city, but if you compare it to Atlanta, LA, Chicago and, New York it isn't so much big.

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Paul Drabek said:
It was a few years ago when I still lived in Illinois. I went down alone for the day and got stapled on Chang and ended up like always the restraint comes down 1 notch during the ride and I ended up with a sprained back all because of an over zealous ride op who refused to release the restraints to losen mine up.

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Hilarious.

They really do need SOMETHING to put on T.V. Commercials in order to get people to go there, and that something can't be new paint and customer service. People who were dissatisfied with the park in the past are not going to return unless they see that there is a big shiney new ride to go on.

*** Edited 11/17/2004 5:02:46 AM UTC by Word***

I agree with you WORD totally. SFNO has been going downhill as far as attendance this past season, mostly due to just flat out arrogant ride ops and poor cutomer service. That is something that we can't put on TV...Come see our park we are # 74 out of 75 in Customer Satisfaction!!! That doesn't sell tickets...Disney and the other big parks sell experience and word of mouth is hard to beat..Thier money base comes from name recognition not ride recognition..To raise our attendance level we need something that sells much like a new ride or need i say waterpark..If we announce nothing as it is looking that way, our money base will only be generated by our expanded Concert series..The only way we could even get close to last years attendance would be to have a concert every weekend and I don't know if they could pull that off nor would I think that be enjoyable for season pass holders who down here shy away from those.. We would then change from a Amusement Park to a Concert arena with rides optional.. How many Concerts does your parks put on each year??

The problem with SFAW is that SF kinda has a monopoly on the Texas market & with three parks there they figure why bother adding rides to our san antonio & houston parks when we've got a park in DFW that we can focus on adding new rides at to increase attendance & revenues? that seems to be the mindset that SFI is in right now.