Now Six Flags "hates poor people?"

But again, "value" and even "quality," are subjective.

I literally have to be paid to attend a sporting event. Unless someone else is covering my ticket and providing food and drink, I'm not going. I see absolutely no "value" in the game, therefore prices are infinitely too high for me. And yet professional sports are a multi-billion-dollar industry. Clearly, my interpretation of its "value" has no bearing on what "should" be charged at the ballpark. And I think Six Flags executives have data to show that enthusiasts' sense of amusement park value is skewed as well.

I had a friend who grew up going to Cedar Point, and he assumed Disney (being known for "quality" attractions) had better and even more rides. He went to Disney as a college student and was disappointed because the "quality" didn't match his experience and expectations.

Without data to back up the claims made by others in this thread (data no one here has), any statements (mine included) are just armchair quarterbacking.

Maybe, but we are the best armchair quarterbacks in the business.

No one has data? Are gate prices not public? I don't think we need to get NPS numbers to know which parks suck and which don't. Public companies report results every three months. There isn't that much mystery.

Value and quality are not so subjective that most people can't agree on what they are. You can quote anecdotes all day about friends. There's plenty of evidence about what's working and what isn't.

metallik:

while KI here is carrying along like a machine, as if nothing's happened. Enthusiastic employees, killer operations, decent food, no unnecessary closures...

I was at CP from early Thursday evening through Friday early afternoon this week. The wait times were all moderate with a few obvious exceptions. Operations seemed to be hitting their mark, food at both Back Beat and the Farmhouse was better-than-fine (the sprouts at Farmhouse are particularly good), and the employees all seemed to be in good spirits. The last half hour of Thursday was a rain-out, but it was a line of genuine thunderstorms, so no complaints there.

Jeff:

No one has data? Are gate prices not public? I don't think we need to get NPS numbers to know which parks suck and which don't. Public companies report results every three months. There isn't that much mystery.

If there is a problem with Six Flags, and the solution is so abundantly clear, why haven't Six Flags executives made those necessary changes?

We dont know what their ultimate goals are do we?

but we do know that at least two large parks are closing. In Maryland and California. Hmmmm

Looking at the Cedar Flags portfolio, I wouldn't consider either of those as large parks.

I can make a nerd-analogy to the world of colleges, both public and (mostly) private. There are a lot of institutions that are not doing well right now. By not doing well, I mean literally one crisis away from closing for good. This is only going to get worse.

Had to add some data (see above).

If I have learned anything from myriad talks with my own institution's people, the "red flag of doom" is when an institution starts giving itself away. Offering discounts rates on tuition that are insane compared to competitors, offering "free" semesters and wild bonuses for students that, to the consumer, sound too good to pass up. And yet, at the same time, these same places are often decaying from the inside out with extraordinarily low faculty morale, a significant loss of resources that impact the student's experience in ways an incoming freshman could not possibly perceive, etc.

Sound familiar?

And the death blow typically comes swiftly and unexpectedly.

It is by no means a perfect analogy, but it harmonizes with what I see happening in higher-ed.

The biggest problem, though; once you pull that lever (cheapening yourself) it's damn near impossible to go the other direction. Just ask Gonch.

We could debate until the cows come home (which is at sunset, by the way) about perception, anecdotes, subjectivity, etc...but the reality is Cedar Flags has decided to be the cheap trick.

I don't understand it, but I don't have a good feeling about it.

TylerWS:

If there is a problem with Six Flags, and the solution is so abundantly clear, why haven't Six Flags executives made those necessary changes?

After seven pages, I thought it was pretty obvious that the executives are pursuing the wrong things. If their goal is to squeeze out financial "efficiency" for short term outcomes, sure, they're nailing it. If they're trying to build a durable, long-term hospitality business that people will be anxious to spend more money with, they're getting almost nothing right.

OhioStater:

The biggest problem, though; once you pull that lever (cheapening yourself) it's damn near impossible to go the other direction. Just ask Gonch.

I can't find it right now (my Gonch-Fu powers are weakening), but there's absolutely a thread from decades ago around here where I'm explaining to someone why "hotels don't just give rooms away" because "they're just sitting there and anything is better than $0"

The answer is rate integrity. If you know you can stay at the Marriott for $99, why would you EVER pay $299. So while that $99 in the short term might look nice, your losing more in the long run by training the customer that your product is $99, not $299.

This is the same.

Although, I think hey sort of worked it a diferent way with tiers and pricing with the add-ons.

Those gate prices aren't what it costs to visit a park now, it's what it costs to visit a park and have the bare minimum terrible experience. It's the Steerage ticket.

The real cost of a park in 2025 - is whatever the gate + FOL + all-in dining, etc costs. Do that and your day will probably be very similar to the experience we all remember and whine about.

Make Amusement Parks Great Again?

MAPGA hats?

That number is far more in line with the expectations around here.
But...

TylerWS:
And I think Six Flags executives have data to show that enthusiasts' sense of amusement park value is skewed as well.

I agree with this 100%.

I think local/regional amusement parks have always been seen as a bit "downmarket" by the public in general. It's meant to be cheap-ass entertainment, in general, largely, across the board and other phrases that generalize. (Hence the steerage ticket, fill the regional park with $150 tickets, I dare ya!)

I also think in 2025 that's compounded by them being a bit passe. If I'm a kid in 2025, I can't image the rollie coasters are much more than an unavoidable diversion at some point during my summer break. Something to do, but not something you necessarily want to do. (which then circles back around to the price thing - these are exactly the people that will waste a day for $30 or $40, but not even consider it at $60 or $70.

So yeah. Parks are charging the right amount for the right experience. The problem is the inclusion of the Steerage ticket in the first place.

Also we were talking about Six Flags' gate integrity 15 years ago. So forgive my brevity and general disinterest in having the same conversations over and over.

Lord Gonchar:

cheap-ass entertainment

Can we please keep calling it this?

Lord Gonchar:

The real cost of a park in 2025 - is whatever the gate + FOL + all-in dining, etc costs. Do that and your day will probably be very similar to the experience we all remember and whine about.

I agree with the "steerage" ticket; that makes sense.

Just using that little equation, let's assume my family of 4 went for to CP for a total of 10 days (which we did). Let's pretend we all got $99 gold passes. (we dodged this cost because T.O.L., which is still a "gold pass) That's a grand total of $39.60 (total) in admission per day for the fam, or $9.99 a day. We stayed off-point.

But this is 3rd class "You're gonna die on the Titanic" tickets.

Let's add the food we bought. 8 of those days we bought 2 "all day dining bands". That's $560.

One of those days we splurged for FL+. That adds $700.

That's $1,660 total, or $415 per person, or $41.50 per day per person.

Yea, that's pretty cheap-ass for admission, all-you-can-eat-all-day, and one day of FL + for everyone.

EDIT: We got lucky on live-E...Joe Vitale Jr. was in residence at Last Chance Saloon all week and he was great).

...and it is perfectly possible to have a fine day without the FOL passes---as long as you don't need to ride every last ride in the park. Catch a headliner or two at open, another one or two near close, and it is easy to fill up the rest of your day with Things To Do that are enjoyable without waiting more than 30 minutes for anything all day.

You can also pay a la carte for some of the FOL passes, which if you use strategically you can probably knock out the whole park for less than you'd think.

Those gate prices aren't what it costs to visit a park now, it's what it costs to visit a park and have the bare minimum terrible experience. It's the Steerage ticket.

The real cost of a park in 2025 - is whatever the gate + FOL + all-in dining, etc costs. Do that and your day will probably be very similar to the experience we all remember and whine about.

let's assume my family of 4 went for to CP for a total of 10 days (which we did)

This is the perspective that I was talking about.

I think local/regional amusement parks have always been seen as a bit "downmarket" by the public in general.

Thinking back to my childhood some 50 years ago, I am not sure how true this was. But maybe its more an issue of something we have discussed before: the upscaling of entertainment/travel.

Value for people who are passionate about amusement parks/coasters is different than for people who are just looking to be entertained for a day or two (particularly when the entertainment options expand). And many of the passionate folks now head to the destination parks instead of their local/regional park.

When I was a kid, Cedar Point, Geauga Lake, SeaWorld Ohio and Kings Island were these incredible and mythical places. If there was a contrasting "up market" thing, I don't know what it was.

Parks still offer something unique that you can't get elsewhere. But with that in mind, The HW and Dollywoods of the world clearly see themselves differently than the Six Flags guys do.

I grew up in southeast Michigan in the 80s, and Cedar Point was the park most people had gone to. My recollection of childhood is that the "mythical" parks was anywhere further away someone had gone to. Almost everyone I knew went to Cedar Point once a year, whether it was with school band, family, tagging along with a friends' family, or whatever. (I did all of those at various points.) Everyone loved Cedar Point and swapped stories and folklore about it. But what used to REALLY impress people was hearing that someone had gone to Kings Island. Probably until Magnum was built, Kings Island was seen as the truly legendary park full of outlandishly huge and scary roller coasters. I used to hear kids bragging about having gone there. Eventually my family went, in 1988, and it made a huge impression on me, especially my first sight of Vortex, which I was too scared to ride.

Every now and then you'd meet a kid whose family had been to Six Flags Over Georgia for some reason, and hoo boy, that might as well be Mars. You'd listen to their stories about it like it was an anthropologist's report.

I grew up in Northwest Ohio (Defiance), and this is 100% true. Pre-Magnum, Kings Island was the place with the thrill, while Cedar Point was the place with the hobo-band and Jungle Larry. I never got a chance to go to KI as a kid; in fact my first trip was with my now-wife in 2003, while she had frequented KI as a kid (grew up in southern Ohio) and only very infrequently visited CP.

"mythical" parks

Wow. The word mythical describing unseen amusement parks from my childhood is a great way to describe the special feeling I would get when I'd see a park map of, or hear about someone's journey to, a park that wasn't Kings Island or Camden Park.

...With the exception of Astroworld (I visited at five years old) and Magic Kingdom (Three years old).

I'm feeling intense nostalgia for the once mythical parks right now.

Brian Noble:

To paraphrase Bill Parcells: You are what your attendance says you are.

If you were thinking "they are who we thought they are" that was the late Dennis Green.

Such a great rant.

Mythical parks of my youth:

cedar point

Magic mountain

Kings island

Disneyland and World

knotts berry farm

the only one I had visited before like age 23 was DisneyWorld back in the late 70s