Now Six Flags "hates poor people?"

Price gouging is charging $100 for a case of bottled water or a sheet of plywood before a hurricane makes landfall. Anyone who argues that price gouging is charging what the market will bear for a meal at a theme park is a buffoon that is not to be taken seriously.

I tend to agree that people just don't have a good understanding of costs, value, etc. People complaining about amusement park prices are often the same people going to Starbucks 5 times a week for coffee...when they could make it at home for less than .50 cents a cup. They are the same people replacing their phones as soon as the next model comes out, even though there is nothing wrong with their existing phones.

I love Gonch's reference:

1. You can't please everyone
2. Vocal minority.

Politics today, at all levels, is paying way too much attention to these people.

super7*:

The main point of this discussion was that Six Flags is expensive for people that don’t have a lot of money.

Everything is expensive for people who don't have a lot of money, in which case amusement parks are likely not a priority.

There's also the fact (and I've mentioned this elsewhere before) that nearly everything is subscription based today. So much of what I earn quietly (and automatically) exits my account every month. That wasn't the case prior to this millennium.

I also recall that when I was a kid, my family of 5 had only one car until I was 11 years old. What family--or even couple without kids--has fewer than two vehicles today?

wahoo skipper:

Politics today, at all levels, is paying way too much attention to these people.

I'm a former Board member of an organization that runs technical conferences. It started out with just one (the "Annual" conference) generalist conference, and that one (the OG) spun off about five very successful others: a more prestigious generalist conference plus several topic-specific conferences with very good reputations. As a consequence, attendance at the OG has been suffering, because everyone is going to attend at most N conferences per year, and the OG doesn't make the cut for the vast majority of people.

After trying a bunch of different strategies--including co-locating the two generalist conferences--the Board made the hard decision to end the OG's run. I think this is a wise and prudent decision, and really just acknowledging the fact that these newer conferences are all so successful that we don't need the OG anymore.

Enter Organization Two, which would like to spin up a venue to serve as the publication outlet for the papers that the OG will no longer publish. Great, no problem, sounds like a good idea. That's because Organization Two's business model is very different--they make money by publishing, not by holding conferences, and so this is a good fit for them. But, they want the OG's name for reasons that make absolutely no sense to me.

When I asked them what was behind this, they said: "There's been a groundswell of support! A lot of people are asking to keep this name going!" When I asked what "a lot" meant, then aswer was....

....eight.

Eight people. Most of whom didn't even attend the last four or five iterations of the OG. In a community of thousands.

SMDH.

wahoo skipper:

I tend to agree that people just don't have a good understanding of costs, value, etc.

I think its less a matter of lacking a good understanding than it is finding value in different things. Not surprising to me that people who post on a message board about coasters/amusement parks tend to find more value in amusement parks than your average bear.

Not sure if SF is reading the posts here, but I just got a message from Canada's Wonderland and they are currently offering 2026 Gold Passes, which now include access to all 40+ SF parks, for the insanely low price of $99 (with a $9.99 service fee of course). There is a catch this year as it states that the pass must be activated at Wonderland. I'll assume they will roll out a similar deal at all the other parks, but that is just crazy stupid to give chainwide access for the season for $100. They'll probably sell a crap ton of them.

Edit: Added link to website.

That price is too low even if it's for your local park only. I don't understand the race to the bottom.

I think I've suggested this before, but: I wonder how many pre-season passes are never/rarely used?

I know of the two I bought for CP for this season, they've each been used I think maybe twice. I might get back this season, but I might not. I bought one at SFGAm for my daughter, and I don't think she's been there yet.

And we are both "coaster dorks." Regular People might be even less likely.

I think that would certainly come into play. I would guess that a decent % of people see the low pass price and think - wow, if I only go 2 times I get my money back, I'm getting that - and then never go that 2nd time, or maybe not even the 1st time.

I have had a gold pass at Cedar Point since they first offered them. Haven't been to the park after Labor Day since pre-Covid. Should get the summer pass but I have aspirations of going during HalloWeekends. Eventually, one year maybe I will. LOL

Six Flags will continue to gather data on pass usage, how many parks how many people attend, what parks are common in terms of visitation, etc. They can use that data in marketing efforts.

A lot of people here go to/have gone to many/most/all Six Flags parks (in a single season or in a 5-10 year period). For the vast majority of people (not on this site), seeing 40+ parks may be enticing but in the end, the Gold Pass to Canada's Wonderland with 40+ parks is the same as a Gold Pass to Canada's Wonderland. Some people though presumably buy one as a result of the 40+ park enticement.

In more than 50 years visiting amusement parks, I have been to 5 Six Flags parks. 3 of those were one time visits. One of those was more than 40 years ago. The two others were more than 10 years ago. Chances of visiting any of those 3 again isn't zero but its certainly under 5%. Last visit to Kings Island (only other multi-visit SF park for me) was also pre-Covid.

Pricing structure though does allow people who visit multiple parks a large number of times (or even one park a large number of times) a great deal. They presumably would be willing to pay more. But I expect those numbers are relatively small (particularly off this site). Maybe at some point they put limits on the number of visits (or require premiums for visiting more than x times). Again, though I expect those numbers are not huge.

Yea. That’s a great value, but I don’t see many people going to more than 3-4 SFs parks per year. Still a great value.

RCMAC:

Parking is expensive and they discourage a lot of cars, suggesting public transportation.

How? Public transit is basically nonexistent in almost all cities in this country.

RCMAC:
Trips to places like Disney, a regional amusement park, or the local fair are somehow viewed as entitlements and that’s a mindset that’s hard to break people of.

So, at least for me, I look at these not as an entitlement, but something that should at least be reasonably in reach with some planning because these things were absolutely in reach for large swaths of America for many decades. Just looking at the county fair, a corn dog or a funnel cake 10 years ago were like 5 bucks, now corn dogs are routinely 8 sometimes more, and funnel cakes are frequently 12 and sometimes more. Costs are well over 100% more in just 10 years. Sure, the gate might have stayed close to the same, but everything inside is extremely more expensive. More than 100% increase in some areas.

What about Knoebels, since we are close we might as well swing by right? My first trip there which was 09 or 10 I believe, carousel was $1, bumper cars were $1.25, and Phoenix was $2.50. (I'm almost certain on Phoenix, you all can check me if you wish). This year, Carousel is $3.00, Bumpers are $3.50, and Phoenix is $5.00. 300% percent increase on flats and 100% on Coasters.

Median and Mean salary increase from 2010 to 2024 are 48-55% and 51-58% respectively. So, things are becoming more expensive relative to most people's incomes. I don't ask anyone on this site because you all are anomalies, the average person is expereince less buying power each year.

The_Orient_of_Express:
And there lies the major problem.
A consumer either personally gets value out of something or they do not.

I don't know that I can agree with that at face value. I do believe there is more subtlety and nuance to this. People's perception of value is on a slider, which is likely tied to what they have for income. If people weren't being bled dry on food and housing, then their comfort level with spending for discretionary items would be higher. If parking costs me $50 and I make $15/hr I would complain far more than if I was making $60/hr. I still might not like it at 60/hr, but it probably wouldn't matter near as much.

People are being priced out of life, when housing and basic requirements suck up most of your income, then everything feels expensive. I can get into a whole slew of discussions about housing and food and billionaires and economics, but until these things are changed, every other industry is going to be heavily affected by it.

Fun:
season pass holders eat fewer meals than day pass visitors

100%. I would consistently bring in, or smuggle in depending on the park, food so I wouldn't have to eat there. Day visitors are typically not as aware of options, not local, or on vacation, and thus will eat whatever. People gotta eat applies here.

The one area that can drastically alter this is quality. I go to the zoo, I have a membership, and I eat there quite often because the options are excellent and the menu changes 3-4 times per year. Yes, this is anecdotal, but I do believe that it would apply to the larger population.

Fun:
The fraction of passholders who have dining plans added, on average, overestimate how much they will use it. Parks know this and count on it.

Same logic applies to AYCE buffets. People sometimes wonder how they can make money, but they do comfortably. Only a miniscule percentage eat enough to offset the cost or walk out profiting.

MDOmnis:
I'm sort of feeling like the middle class amusement park goer is being driven away.

The middle class is general is being driven away. Jeff said some time ago that more people are moving upward in salary than downward, and regardless of those numbers, the center is being hollowed out, and people are moving either up or down. People aren't replacing that middle class. If you are not the lucky one moving up at a rate to keep pace with corporate inflation, then you are experiencing a lower quality of life.

I saw the price of the Canada's Wonderland passes and was thinking it's going to be giving away the gate hoping for other in park spending.

Then I looked at dining pass, drink plus pass and fast lane plus pass for all parks and it came out to approximately $1300 (Canadian), yes that is mostly Fast Lane Plus, but I can almost bet they will do the same structure and US $ price point for Six Flags Great Adventure's home pass. Especially with the GP carrying torches and pitchforks to the gates this season. They will be hoping people who say they are not renewing , due to the disaster that is Great Adventure operations this year and the removal of so many rides, will backtrack on the threat.

I will be watching for which of 3 parks I want to designate as my home park based park additions and overall though of which I want it to be.

I may live outside Philly but my home park this season was KD and I've already been 5 times there compared to 3 at Dorney, 1 at Great Adventure and 1 at America. I rerouted my planned KI and CP trip to BGW and did only a 3 hour quick dinner and loop around the park at KD on the drive down. I could have stopped the Sunday I was headed home but decided to see how reports from Great Adventure was thinking I could just pop up the quick 45 minutes extra and then head home but seeing reports of rain that day when I was in Maryland, I just headed home.

It's wild that the all parks upcharge seems to be gone. But like many have stated here, how many local passholders are going anywhere else outside of their home park?

Where this may lose them some easy revenue would be folks in Ohio that make a yearly trip to both Cedar Point and Kings Island. Or anywhere else where post-merger there are neighboring parks (Great Adventure and Dorney, Magic Mountain and Knott's, California's Great America and Discovery Kingdom).

The argument could be made that the insanely low price of $99 for 40+ parks is a one or two year thing to gain a lot of passholders and then they'll start applying the regional pass model they have briefly discussed and raise prices. But how many times have we seen that movie (2019 Cedar Point gold pass, early 2000s legacy Six Flags everything) where they just keep the underpriced, undervalued product indefinitely.

TheMillenniumRider:

My first trip there which was 09 or 10 I believe, carousel was $1, bumper cars were $1.25, and Phoenix was $2.50.

What year was that, and what is it adjusted for inflation?

TheMillenniumRider:
The middle class is general is being driven away. Jeff said some time ago that more people are moving upward in salary than downward, and regardless of those numbers, the center is being hollowed out, and people are moving either up or down. People aren't replacing that middle class.

I don't say that, statistics say that. Why does there have to be a middle class? What if we just did a better job at providing for the lower class? I know, socialism or whatever, but the onset of the industrial age, the Internet age, and probably the AI age change the work landscape in unintended ways. Even service jobs at McDonald's have disappeared with kiosk ordering. There will come some point where there aren't enough jobs for everyone, no matter how much they want to work. I don't disagree that wealth inequality has historically ended badly for those societies, but American culture is obsessed with a large average. That feels arbitrary.

With regard to amusement parks and middle income folks, if they're driven away, that's not what the headlines suggest. These yearly stories about fights and gunshots in the parking lot don't sound like one-percenters to me. I'm not quite up to that level, but I can tell you that the regional parks' appeal to me is pretty mediocre, with some notable exceptions here and there. For the most part, they're not nice enough, or exclusive enough, to make them must-do things. But Europe? Can't get back there fast enough.

The only consistent thing I've looked for in leisure is strong hospitality and comfort. I guess that's just where I am in life. I enjoy a great roller coaster ride, sure, and I periodically get one now and then (my parks happen to be big themers, but still). With my kid now a teenager who prefers to do his own thing, if I get some time with my wife, I'm looking for a really good meal in a really good atmosphere, and probably live entertainment. Amusement parks can have those things, but I think most do not.

State fairs are often in large cities or capitol cities, and most of them have public transportation. A smart bus line will advertise express service to the fairgrounds, and most of them do. Dallas, Tampa, St. Paul, Springfield, W. Springfield, Indianapolis, Raleigh, Milwaukee, hell, even Puyallup had busses going by. We did that from near our hotel in downtown Des Moines direct to the fairgrounds gate and it was great. So I don’t know what you’re looking for. Monorails? Hovercraft? To make a blanket statement that public transportation is non-existent is preposterous, and I maintain it’s a smart way for families and seniors to go- especially if they’re gonna cry about parking fees.
A bus just went by my house. Oh, did I leave Columbus off of that list? COTA will get you to not only our fair but the zoo, OSU games, sports events, the fireworks, and the busiest festivals. Get outta here with that.

Given how far the legacy Six Flags parks are lagging in per caps and profitability, you’d think improving park quality would be the top priority, not chasing more cheap pass sales which arguably helped cause the current mess. Unless your ticket prices are outrageous (and they’re really not compared to the competition), the lasting impression of a visit comes down to how it felt, not what it cost. If I had a great time, I’m not sitting in the car afterward analyzing what I paid, unless the experience was noticeably bad.

I get the strategy they’re probably using with the pass — kind of a “popcorn sizing” model where people buy in cheap, come once or twice, and Six Flags calls that a win. But I wonder how much they’re really winning when those visits don’t lead to strong per caps or loyalty.

It’s wild to look at Cedar Fair’s numbers for context: in 2007, their per cap was $40.45 — which is $62.71 adjusted for inflation. That was during the post-Paramount era, with high gate prices, slow and mediocre food, and not much else to spend on. Yet in 2024, with Fast Lane, upgraded food options, and meal/drink plans driving extra revenue, the per cap is still just $61.60. That’s basically flat. Apples to oranges sure, but it raises questions.

Back then, at least the experience was consistent. Now, even with Fast Lane, you might still face long waits due to weaker ops. Spending $250 and waiting in lines not much shorter than 2007 doesn’t exactly scream value.

I have the Prestige Pass now, and personally I find value in it. We go a few times a month in the evening, park up front, ride a headliner with the one time FL and a couple others, and grab decent dinner outside. It’s a relaxed, pleasant experience which I am happy they offer for the premium. But for that big one day spender or resort guest shelling out $, it’s easier to walk away wondering if it was really worth it if the quality lags due to poor ops and overcrowding.

Fantastic post. The bit about the now lower per caps against what is included is really striking. If you get way more for your money, and that's the value prop, what does it say about the base product? Nothing good, for sure.

BrettV:

The argument could be made that the insanely low price of $99 for 40+ parks is a one or two year thing to gain a lot of passholders and then they'll start applying the regional pass model they have briefly discussed and raise prices.

While it’s possible Canadas pricing will be an outlier (late opening of Alpenfury), if pricing is flat at other parks with more parks added, this is a huge red flag. The thesis for merging in the SEC filing included

approximately $80 million in incremental EBITDA from revenue uplift, which is expected to be realized within three years

If they are not going to achieve this through season pass pricing (60% of attendance), there is no other category of attendance that will see revenue uplift because of the merger. School trips and company picnics don’t visit multiple parks.

They simply cannot afford to give away the gate anymore and meet these goals within the time frame they’ve outlined.