Magic Mountain Gay Pride Night

Mamoosh said:

BDesvignes said: My only problem is when people twist it to mean what they want and change what it is.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I didn't twist anything. That's what it says. What i mean by twisting it are people that use Leviticus as examples of why the religion is terrible, or people like the Phelps who carry 'God Hates Fags' signs.

The problem is that you put faith in a book. Or more precisely, you put faith in the idea that the book is without question the literal intent of God in every way. As I've said before, the only way you can "prove" that to be a truth is if someone else believes the same as you, and you don't get to decide whether or not that qualifies someone as Christian, since being one is subject to whatever one believes.

And for the record, I've never been one to believe that any holy book (molested and translated by man for thousands of years) has been any kind of absolute. Most of the war, hate and suffering in the world has been rooted in these books throughout human history.

BDesvignes said: I didn't twist anything.

Whatever. Is your last name "Wall" because I feel like I'm talking to one. LOL.

You don't agree with or approve of my lifestyle. Fine. Well guess what? I don't approve and agree with your lifestyle. Now everything is even :)

Mamoosh said:

BDesvignes said: I didn't twist anything.

Whatever. Is your last name "Wall" because I feel like I'm talking to one. LOL.

You don't agree with or approve of my lifestyle. Fine. Well guess what? I don't approve and agree with your lifestyle. Now everything is even :)

I was never intending to say that I don't approve of your and others lifestyles and judge. Do what you want I wouldn't treat you any differently than anyone else. I was only trying to point out that groups like the Phelps and other people who scream and complain about gays don't represent the religion. Other people were bringing the religion into the discussion and I was trying to point some things out. If you read my posts you would see that I said people shouldn't judge and condemn others.

BDesvignes said:
I didn't twist anything. That's what it says. What i mean by twisting it are people that use Leviticus as examples of why the religion is terrible, or people like the Phelps who carry 'God Hates Fags' signs.

But you are using the passages that say homosexuality is wrong to back up your views on the matter. Why do you get to pick and choose and we don't?

I'm not picking and choosing. Posting the entire chapter would be very long and the discussions could be huge. Read the whole thing if you like. Picking passages from levitcus is wrong because they are out of context. They don't apply to christians because they are part of gods covenant with isreal not christians.

I also picked those passages because someone said there nothing in the new testament that prohibits the acts to show there is.

BDesvignes said: I was never intending to say that I don't approve of your and others lifestyles and judge.

A few pages earlier, BDesvignes said: If I don't agree with the gay lifestyle that's my choice and there's nothing wrong with that.

So which is it?

I was stating that its someones choice to approve or not and either way it doesn't matter. I'm not judging anyone. What you do with your life is your choice and it doesn't affect how I view you as a person or how I would treat you.

You're avoiding the question. Do you or do you not approve of the "gay lifestyle?"

Personally I don't but I don't consider it a big issue. Like I said I'm not being judgmental and you can do what you want.

You don't seem to understand that there is no choice.

It's not like picking between being on the shirts' team or skins. I'm hetero, and to me the concept of being romantic with, or having sex with, another man is simply not conceivable. It's not a choice. That's the way I was born -- straight.

What fundamentalists are incapable of acknowledging is that it is exactly the same way for gays. They don't have a choice in the matter either.

It's 2010. It's all kind of crazy to me how still so many people believe that being homosexual is a choice or a "lifestyle."

Please. Like people CHOOSE to be persecuted, ridiculed, mocked, and being the punch line of discriminatory jokes.

When you became sexually active, did you make an actual choice as to what sex you are attracted to?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

kRaXLeRidAh said:
It's 2010. It's all kind of crazy to me how still so many people believe that being homosexual is a choice or a "lifestyle."

Please. Like people CHOOSE to be persecuted, ridiculed, mocked, and being the punch line of discriminatory jokes.

When you became sexually active, did you make an actual choice as to what sex you are attracted to?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Don't forget being pistol whipped, mugged, murdered, beheaded or hung at the gallows....all of which are consequences of living one's "truth" in a world that would rather deny equality to the LGBT community.

How is it not a lifestlye? A lifestyle just involves how you live you life. It has nothing to do with being gay sepcifically. Also, please don't lump me in the group of people who are hateful.

Can I get a hug? I'm needy that way. I like to hug other humans. Except when they have too much fragrance on, I'm allergic ;)

^ But you never answered the most obvious question. Is being straight a "lifestyle" also? Or is it simply how you are? If not, what's the difference?

"Gay lifestyle" is a stereotype. Not all gay people live their lives the same way.

...Just like straight people.

I thought that maybe I should make that more clear.

I have like a million things to say. Go shopping and mow the lawn and see what you miss... :-P

First, to BDesvignes, since when does the OT Levitical law not apply? Matthew 5:17-18 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

To everyone saying "It's not a choice" - whether or not a desire or impulse is a choice does not mean the action itself is right or wrong (independent of which system of morals you subscribe to). As in my previous post, my desire to have sex with a woman I meet in a bar, even though I'm married is not a choice and is perfectly natural. That does not make the act of having sex with her right. (Again, I'm not saying homosexuality is or is not right or wrong. I'm just saying "the desire is not a choice" is not a strong argument.)

Re: What the bible does and does not say
If you take what the bible says "at face value," I don't think you can come to any conclusion other than homosexuality is "not good." Of course, you also come to the conclusion that homosexuality is no worse than greed, lust, selfishness, deceit, apathy, injustice, oppression, or any of a million things that we all do everyday. Also a lot of people should be stoned to death, a lot of people are going to hell, a lot of people who don't deserve to be loved by God are, and a whole lot of other stuff that contradicts the first stuff. Heck, even the first two chapters of Genesis contradict each other (in their orders of creation). Summary: If you take everything at face value, you end up with a giant mess of confusion and contradiction.

So what can you do with the bible other than throw the whole thing out (which seems to me like throwing out the baby with the bath water - even if it has been used to justify many horrendous things which we Christians seem to have a hard time confessing and apologizing for. There's still a ton of good stuff in there.)? Everything hinges on the two great commandments: Love God, love neighbor. If your interpretation of any passage supports these two commandments, I'm with you. If it doesn't, I'm not with you. If you can show me that homosexuality helps you love God and love neighbor, then go for it. If you can show me that homosexuality obstructs your ability to love God and love neighbor, then don't do it. If you can convince other people that your point of view will help them love God and love neighbor, more power to you. If not, at least your conscience is clean.

At the end of the day, though, there is never any excuse to perpetrate violence in body, word, attitude, or any other way towards any of God's creation.

Edit: I almost forgot the most important part of my faith:
There's also never ever ever any excuse for suggesting, implying, insinuating, saying, mentioning, writing, or communicating that God has anything but unconditional and perfect love for all of God's children. Ever. Because God's unconditional and perfect love for all God's children is the fundamental thesis of the Christian faith. (Romans 8:38-39 among about a million others) The previous statement about violence follows from this one.

And now to finish writing a sermon. :P

Amen. Or something. :)

See, I tend to take it more abstract than Christianity, or any religion for that matter. Ultimately your faith is what you decide it is. Every religion that I'm aware of has some kind of framework for that faith, and it's my opinion that if you accept any of those frameworks top to bottom and unconditionally, you haven't really challenged your faith. That's not meant to piss anyone off, it's just an observation. I suspect if more people challenged their faith, they might not adhere to the one they were brought up on. Few people choose a religion to base their faith on beyond what they were raised in.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, except to reinforce the point I made earlier (that BDesvignes hasn't responded to): Because faith is a belief, and one determined solely by an individual, you can't say "my way is right and yours is incorrect." The sooner people get used to that idea, the sooner we can all get along.