Magic Mountain Gay Pride Night

Jeff said:
Amen. Or something. :)

Oh Jeff... the invisible man in the sky won't like that! I miss George Carlin.

ApolloAndy said:
First, to BDesvignes, since when does the OT Levitical law not apply? Matthew 5:17-18 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Jesus fulfilled the law when he lead a life perfectly according to the law and then died on the cross providing salvation. Therefore, the old covenant is over and we are in a new covenant.

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:23-26

ApolloAndy said:

Re: What the bible does and does not say
If you take what the bible says "at face value," I don't think you can come to any conclusion other than homosexuality is "not good." Of course, you also come to the conclusion that homosexuality is no worse than greed, lust, selfishness, deceit, apathy, injustice, oppression, or any of a million things that we all do everyday. Also a lot of people should be stoned to death, a lot of people are going to hell, a lot of people who don't deserve to be loved by God are, and a whole lot of other stuff that contradicts the first stuff. Heck, even the first two chapters of Genesis contradict each other (in their orders of creation). Summary: If you take everything at face value, you end up with a giant mess of confusion and contradiction.

I agree. Homosexual acts are prohibited by the bible but all sins are on the same level. According to the bible no one is perfect and no one deserves God's love. We still receive God's love unconditionally though; however, that doesn't mean we still will go to heaven because of that.

John Knotts said:
^ But you never answered the most obvious question. Is being straight a "lifestyle" also? Or is it simply how you are? If not, what's the difference?

I guess saying lifestyle is too general of a term for anything. I could say hetero lifestyle or vegan lifestyle, but I'm not a sociologist so i guess i should leave the term to them. I don't mean anything negative by using the term though. What i mean by it are the actions involved. So either hetero or homo sexual acts then.

Really? So God, our judge, who loves us perfectly and unconditionally and has the authority and power to give us perfect freedom and joy or eternal condemnation and suffering will choose the latter?

Also, if our obedience to God is solely so that we get to go to heaven and not to live a fulfilling life of service and make a difference, aren't we only saying that we're easily bribed?

Also, re: fulfilment of the law
Romans 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
Paul, also the writer of Galatians.

I'm not saying that we have to follow the OT laws letter for letter. I'm just saying that you can't throw the whole thing out. Even Jesus quoted from the OT.

Re: Jeff
I totally agree. The reason for all the structure is that history has shown us a million times over that people don't really know what they want. People have a tendency to think they're working for their long term fulfillment, joy, and peace when they are really working against it. All the structure is in place (again, in theory - even though it's been abused for power and greed) to offer to people some practices and beliefs that many Christians have found bring long term fulfillment, joy, and peace. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong. Just means that it has worked for billions of people over the years and it may or may not work for anyone else.

If a person only take the parts of various religions that he *thinks* will work without allowing the structures to challenge him, he hasn't really challenged his faith either. Basically he'd be saying that he already knows what he needs before leaving the starting line.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it certainly doesn't help to say, "My way is right and your way is wrong" but I think it's reasonable to say, "My way may work for you better than your way is working for you. (And your way may work for me better than my way is working for me)."

I think y'all are in for a big surprise when all of us end up as nothing more than dirt in the ground.

The energy has to go somewhere, mlnem4s. Nothing just dies.

Absolutely things "just die." Case in point, stars in the sky....we can witness their death, and they are basically made of energy.

ApolloAndy said:
Really? So God, our judge, who loves us perfectly and unconditionally and has the authority and power to give us perfect freedom and joy or eternal condemnation and suffering will choose the latter?

Throughout the bible you will see that God wants people to have free will and choice. He is not not sending people to eternal condemnation and suffering they do it to themselves.

Our obedience to God is not just so we get into heaven, and we also need to lead good lives and make a difference.

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. James 2:14-17

ApolloAndy said:

Also, re: fulfilment of the law
Romans 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
Paul, also the writer of Galatians.

The old Mosaic law found in the old testament NEVER applied to gentiles. Therefore, it doesn't apply to Christians. There are many passages in the new testament stating that the Israelites are released from Mosaic law also. In the passage that you quoted from if you read it in context you will see that the original greek word he used for law doesn't also have the word prophet with it like it does when Paul is discussing Mosaic law.

Andy, I really appreciate your posts. This thread was beginning to indicate that every one of us was bound to a life of condemnation for our sins.

I am drawn to question anything or anyone who teaches in terms of fear and condemnation. I believe that God's love is unconditional. And I believe that it is that fact that we are meant to spread to others as much as we can.

To spread the word of what constitutes sin walks a fine line with judgment and criticism. There are just too many gray areas. I don't believe many (any?) of us are in the position to do that accurately.

It just doesn't seem ok to me to say "you are living a sinful lifestyle, but I am not judging you."

Carrie M. said: It just doesn't seem ok to me to say "you are living a sinful lifestyle, but I am not judging you."

Amen, sister!

Andy, you should go ahead and write a book.

You speak to the part of me that happily wears the label of "Christian" even though I see such horrible acts committed in Christ's name (and to my thinking, directly against the teachings).

Saw something on History Channel this weekend that basically spoke to many of the historical facts regarding what writings were canonized and which were not. Politics and self-serving economics played a significant role. It just adds to the fact that, with age, you begin to recognize that very little in life is as easily divided into moral right and wrong based solely on the specific language of a certain passage. You kinda have to go with your heart a lot of times in life.

Some would find it a sin to eat a hamburger. Others only if it were a cheeseburger. Some would be OK with it as long as it wasn't on a Friday. Some would have a problem with it if the animal were treated inhumanely. Try to practice those beliefs that you find meaningful, and let others worry about their practices and beliefs. A "sin" as I see it is more about doing something you *know* is wrong.

Once beliefs cross over into doing harm to others, then society imposes punishments "apropriate" to the harm caused. Because that *is* man's domain.

Or so it goes... :)

According to the Bible God's love is unconditional and he does love everyone but that doesn't mean that everyone is going to go to heaven. All I was doing was pointing out what the bible says on the subject. I never said to anyone that is gay that they are living a sinful life. No one is perfect. So I hope you're not referring to me with the comments about being judgmental.

Great post Carrie.

Here's my take on religion in the world: I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, the works. The rest of my family was Methodist and I also had very close friends who were Jewish. Let me tell ya what I walked away from all of that with: every religion is about fear mongering and manipulation. "Do this and you will get a great reward!" "Do that and you are going to burn in the fires of almighty hell!" It's all BS made up by mankind as a way to control and manipulate the minds of people.

Remember, far back in ancient times they didn't have governments and laws and such......so in order to control people and make them fall in line with what the rulers wanted they had to create "something" to do just that. Add in to the equation they did not have the technology or science to explain much about the world and walla! The need for gods to explain happenings here on Earth along with religious teachings as the "laws of the gods" and there you have it....total fear-control over people. Just look at people today, everyone is still afraid of what happens when we die and if all the "little bad things we've done" will prevent us from getting into "heaven." Why can't people just accept the fact we turn into dirt and that's the end?

Carpe roller coasterem!

BDesvignes said:
According to the Bible...

All of your posts start this way, and you still won't answer my question: What argument is there to be made if someone else doesn't believe what you believe?

ApolloAndy said:
Just means that it has worked for billions of people over the years and it may or may not work for anyone else.

I'm not sure I totally agree with that. The amateur anthropologist in me still says that religion has been the source of more suffering and violence than any other motivator in human history. It's not that the higher purposes of religion, spiritual enlightenment and what not, aren't great things. It's usually the institutions around them that become the problem. Not to say some good things don't come out of that (like founding a new country, for example), but I wonder if it does more harm than good.

I believe people want religion because it gives them comfort. It gives them the piece of mind to make sense of death and tragedy. It gives a sense of peace when it comes to the question about whether or not there's anything more beyond life. I'm not criticizing this, I'm just describing what I see. I'm no different. What I'll never get is why anyone is so sure they've got the answer that they're compelled to bomb abortion clinics or crash airplanes. I theorize that grows out of the fear mongering that Carrie mentioned. That I believe grows more out of the institutions than it does faith.

mlnem4s said:
Just look at people today, everyone is still afraid of what happens when we die and if all the "little bad things we've done" will prevent us from getting into "heaven." Why can't people just accept the fact we turn into dirt and that's the end?

If there is nothing after death then why exist in the first place? Why should someone do good things and help people if here is nothing for them when they die. Why have kids and populate the earth? Would you do your job if you didn't get paid? There's nothing wrong with believing in something whether it be heaven and hell or reincarnation or something else. I guess we really won't know if something happens until we die, so I've prepared some nice grape koolaid.

Jeff said:

BDesvignes said:
According to the Bible...

All of your posts start this way, and you still won't answer my question: What argument is there to be made if someone else doesn't believe what you believe?

I did that because I was trying to just discuss what the bible says and doesn't say since people were bringing it up. I felt they were wrong and wanted to point out what the bible does say. People thought I was wrong and posted back. I'm not here trying to get people to repent and believe what I'm saying I just thought the discussion was interesting. People are free to believe what they want. I just wanted to present things from another side that wasn't being represented here in this discussion.

I also didn't want to make it personal.

BDesvignes said:

If there is nothing after death then why exist in the first place? Why should someone do good things and help people if here is nothing for them when they die. Why have kids and populate the earth?

The answer to question one and three is we exist and procreate because that is the cycle of life on earth. Humans are mammals after all, we do exactly what other mammals on the planet do every day.

Why do good things? Because our brains are wired to create a chemical response from our actions, doing good deeds allows us to feel pleasure and happiness from a simple chemical release.

Life really can be broken down into very simple terms. It is only mankind who chooses to make it more complicated than it really is.

Humans are proud creatures. We think we're so important that there has to be some higher reason for our existence. I think that's another reason we have faith in God. Religion helps us explain that too.

I eventually came to a point where I can leave the possibility open that there is no higher power. I would like it if there was, but the truth of the matter is that once I'm dead, there's nothing I can do about it either way. I don't want to fear something I can't control. I suppose I've prepared myself for both possibilities.

And honestly, do you need to be motivated by God to be a good person? Not being an asshole has some great motivating perks like not being alone. :)

BDesvignes said:
Why should someone do good things and help people if here is nothing for them when they die.

Um.... holy cow.

It's interesting to ready the posts about "lifestyle". For those that don't approve of homosexuality it's clear that it's still being seen as some choice about who you have sex with.

There's more to a gay relationship than just sex. I've been in a monogamous relationshiop with a man that I'm madly in love with for 6 years. When he's not home I miss him. If he's running late I worry about him. When he gets home the first thing we do is give each other a big hug. If I have a cold he makes me chicken soup. We're very happy together and I'm so thankful to be in love and to be loved. Why wouldn't God want that?