Magic Mountain Gay Pride Night

BDesvignes said: I also didn't want to make it personal.

Well then you failed. As a gay man, I take what you've said about me and my "lifestyle" personally.

Mamoosh said:

BDesvignes said: I also didn't want to make it personal.

Well then you failed. As a gay man, I take what you've said about me and my "lifestyle" personally.

I don't think I've said anything for you to take offense to or take personally. I never said you shouldn't be able to do what you want or that you should be denied rights by the government. I've said that you should be allowed to do what you want and the government shouldn't deny people who want to be in a union that ability. I've only been try to discuss whether or not the bible prohibits homosexual acts which I believe it does. You're the one that asked me whether or not I approve of those acts. I also didn't say you have to believe what I do or approve.

Cropsey said:

BDesvignes said:
Why should someone do good things and help people if here is nothing for them when they die.

Um.... holy cow.

It's interesting to ready the posts about "lifestyle". For those that don't approve of homosexuality it's clear that it's still being seen as some choice about who you have sex with.

There's more to a gay relationship than just sex. I've been in a monogamous relationshiop with a man that I'm madly in love with for 6 years. When he's not home I miss him. If he's running late I worry about him. When he gets home the first thing we do is give each other a big hug. If I have a cold he makes me chicken soup. We're very happy together and I'm so thankful to be in love and to be loved. Why wouldn't God want that?

I only said that because of the comment about why people believe in an afterlife. It was just a thought.

That's great that you've been in a monogamous relationship for that long. That's a hard thing to do and i think it's wrong the government denies you the ability to be in a legal union like hetro couples can. As to what God wants that's between you and him and whatever belief system you subscribe to.

BDesvignes said:
I don't think I've said anything for you to take offense to or take personally.

That's the problem. You've gone to great lengths to invalidate who people are and don't even realize it.

Come on, BDesvignes. If you are going to come out and speak out about that which you think is right or wrong, then it would be great if you could own it for what it is. Hiding behind, "I never said you couldn't do what you want" is cowardly.

You have said that homosexuality is wrong. And you have said that Christians who believe that homosexuality is not wrong are not really Christians. Telling someone you know is gay that homosexuality is wrong (and might I add insinuating it will prevent them from going to Heaven) is judgmental and every reason for that gay person to take it personally.

It would be my hope that you think about the differences between believing in your faith and denouncing others for theirs.

Carrie M. said:
Come on, BDesvignes. If you are going to come out and speak out about that which you think is right or wrong, then it would be great if you could own it for what it is. Hiding behind, "I never said you couldn't do what you want" is cowardly.

You have said that homosexuality is wrong. And you have said that Christians who believe that homosexuality is not wrong are not really Christians. Telling someone you know is gay that homosexuality is wrong (and might I add insinuating it will prevent them from going to Heaven) is judgmental and every reason for that gay person to take it personally.

It would be my hope that you think about the differences between believing in your faith and denouncing others for theirs.

People can believe what they want to and do what they want to. We have free will. I don't believe that a christian group can say they are when they say that homosexual acts aren't prohibited and allow for it. People were posting things about Christianity so I chimed in. I'm not sitting here screaming believe this or burn in hell. Do what you want and believe what you want. That's between you and whatever god you believe in or don't. I just wanted to discuss whether it really was prohibited or not by the bible. I thought the discussion was interesting. Perhaps my word choices weren't the best but I didn't intend to alienate others.

But that's the issue. You chimed in on a concept for which you have no authority. There's only one authority on the topic of that which is sinful and of that which would prevent a gateway to Heaven. Speaking to those things is not right.

Furthermore, someone has indicated that your words have impacted them negatively and you are unwilling to take responsibility for that.

So who's going to break it to the Episcopalians that, all this time, they haven't been real Christians?

FWIW, I was raised in the Epicopal church (I'm agnostic these days, but that another story). The first gay people I ever met were members of the church, a lesbian couple who sang Christian folk songs during the sunday school portion of the program. How foolish we were to accept them and their love for one another, when we could have been learning a valuable lesson about telling them their love was wrong because of our unquestioning rigidity in something that may or may not be total make-believe!

This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Puddy confirms that he is religious and doesn't care that Elaine is not, because he is "not the one going to Hell."

Carrie M. said:
But that's the issue. You chimed in on a concept for which you have no authority. There's only one authority on the topic of that which is sinful and of that which would prevent a gateway to Heaven. Speaking to those things is not right.

Furthermore, someone has indicated that your words have impacted them negatively and you are unwilling to take responsibility for that.

I realize I don't have authority to definitely say what's right and wrong and no one does that includes you. All I did was express an opinion based on my readings and understandings. I've stated all along people can do and believe what they want. Some people posted passages and their belief based on them and said I was wrong so i posted back. I had no ill intentions the entire time. I'm not interested in what people do with their lives I just wanted to discuss the bible since other people had brought it up.

Break Trims said:
So who's going to break it to the Episcopalians that, all this time, they haven't been real Christians?

FWIW, I was raised in the Epicopal church (I'm agnostic these days, but that another story). The first gay people I ever met were members of the church, a lesbian couple who sang Christian folk songs during the sunday school portion of the program. How foolish we were to accept them and their love for one another, when we could have been learning a valuable lesson about telling them their love was wrong because of our unquestioning rigidity in something that may or may not be total make-believe!

Episcopalians and others can believe what they want. I think they are wrong to say they are a christian church based on my understanding and readings. Which I have previously posted.

And someday I hope you will be willing to open your mind to new understandings based on those readings. If not, that will be your prerogative, too, of course.

You don't have to repeat yourself any longer. I think we get it.

Carrie M. said: You don't have to repeat yourself any longer. I think we get it.

Agreed. And while I certainly appreciate the love and support in this thread from those who are "non-gay" I think it's time to put this thread to rest and hope the mods close it. I've had enough verbal bashing of my "lifestyle" thankyouverymuch.

I bowed out of posting in this thread a few pages back when it started getting too deep. However, I don't at all feel as if I've been bashed. I see the posts as merely the opinions of others and their interpretation of the teaching of the Bible. Some of the post are just showing someones personal feelings on the subject. Whatever.

Just let me say this. I try to live a good life, treating people with compassion, loving my family, friends, and those I care about. I try to help those less fortunate. I, however, will NOT allow someone to tell me that I'm going to burn in Hell for being gay when I can watch them sneaking off with their wife's best friend. None of us are free from sin. I do the best I can.

Well sorry that I offended you that wasn't my intention. I found the discussion interesting and did learn some thing about other people.

For the record, this was all much more interesting when it was about the appropriate level and scope of minority activism.

I don't believe in God, but if there is one, he/she is probably gay. ;)

(does that count as full circle?)

And she'll look like Alanis Morissette.

This has been the most fascinating CoasterBuzz thread that I have ever read. I've learned a whole lot and it has even changed my perspective a little. I really appreciate that the thread has lived as long as it has so I could get so much from it.

Thanks.

Okay another ton of things to comment on:

Re: original Greek and fulfillment of the law.
I'm going to bow out of this conversation, not because I don't have a decent grasp of biblical Greek (studied a year of Greek and a year of Hebrew) but because it's so far off topic that it's probably just better to agree to disagree.

Re: Organized religion
I agree Jeff that many terrible things have been perpetrated in the name of organized religion. Heck, even the institutions themselves today are flawed beyond recognition. However, many wonderful things have happened in the name of organized religion as well. I believe and have dedicated my life to the belief that it is *possible* to have the good without the bad. We're nowhere near there yet, but I believe it is possible and worth working for.

Re: Why religion at all? Why not just molecules and science?
Having come from a science background, I can see that such a view of life is consistent (for the most part) and helpful. However, *for me* it did not answer my most important question which was "How do I live a fulfilling life?" Science never told me how to have purpose, direction, joy, and hope. You might say all these things are delusions, but I'd rather live with the delusion of purpose, joy, fulfillment, and peace than the airtight knowledge that such things don't really exist.

Re: So why "behave"?
See above. I try to do what my faith teaches because it brings me more hope, joy, and peace. When I lived without a higher purpose (having been raised atheist) my life was really unfulfilling. I kept asking the question, "Isn't there more to life than this?" Honestly, I really hope there's an afterlife, but if there weren't I wouldn't live my life today a tiny bit differently. I don't behave to please God so I can get what I want when I die. I behave because I feel better about myself at the end of the day when I live for a greater purpose. I will let God be my judge when I die.

Re: BDesvignes
I actually sympathize with you a lot. I can see where your point of view comes from, it is definitely supported in scripture, and I totally understand it. I do think you are being misunderstood because I assume your position is "love the sinner, hate the sin" which is the position I understand Jesus to have taken.

What troubles me is when you draw a line in the sand, whether it be about who goes to heaven or who is a Christian. From the theological side, if you're going to draw the line at homosexuality, then to be consistent you also have to draw the same line for divorce, lust, anger, greed, doubt, arrogance, deception, cowardice (Rev 21:8, etc.) etc. Not to mention you have to forbid women from wearing braids in their hair or gold, pearls or expensive clothes, women speaking up during a lesson (1 Tim 2),and any number of things which don't make sense in today's context. Pretty much we're all screwed. (Thank God for grace, right?)

From the practical side, I've changed my mind about so many various important things in my life that I hesitate to ever say, "Now, I've got it for sure."

Bottom line for me: If you're going to draw the line, draw it consistently, in which case you condemn yourself along with everyone who ever lived, save Jesus. (Which isn't a bad place to start from necessarily, if you allow God's grace to supersede the condemnation.)