Lots of new attractions at Cedar Fair parks next year...HMMMMM.

You bought the ticket and paid whatever price you paid based on the attractions the park currently has, not what they've "promised" to provide years down the road. All they owe you is their best effort to operate those attractions to peak capacity while providing quality customer service in the form of friendly, hard working employees. When you buy the ticket, you buy it with the risk of inclement weather, rides experiencing mechanical issues, and large crowds/long lines. You could pay full price for a single-day admission to Cedar Point on a July Saturday, stand in line for 4 hours to ride MF and Dragster, then get hit with a thunderstorm and breakdowns to a few coasters, and the park would not be to blame for any of it.

SnoopyDoo said:

If you believe that these parks weren't in competition with Six Flags and each other, you are the ones that are looking at the world through rose colored wine. And by the looks of it, many "bags" of that liquid.

Where did anyone say that no parks were in competition? Now, MiA doesn't really have any competition. And Cedar Fair purchased them because it was a wise business decision, since there is no competition for the park, and they don't need to spend a whole lot of money at the park in order for it to make money. Funny how that works...

The entire concept of why not to invest in a area that supposedly won't support it, really holds no support either as Disney has built up their property in Florida that would otherwise be swampland or Orange groves in California.

You're really comparing Disney and MiA? Really? MiA was built as a small regional park, which is what it is, and it's in a colder climate and that's all it will ever be.

Disney was built as a destination resort with hotels built at opening, in a warm climate, with tons of room to expand. They're totally different.

After all, Sandusky Ohio holds little to draw to tourism without Cedar Point - it's just another quaint coastal town.

It's got the beach. That's all it needs. Cedar Point was a vacation destination for decades before Cedar Point became what it is now. Cedar Point sprung out of Sandusky, not the other way around.

The company has systematically (OK, I will use your terms "entered into a conspiracy") made the business decision to go massively into debt to protect their core business (i.e. existing parks) by purchasing the competition and then milking them for what they could as "feeder" parks. It's a classic survival and growth plan that will always work for the short term.

So, then, they've milked Vallyfair, Knotts, Dorney, Worlds of Fun, and the former Paramount Parks, just to protect their core park? Never investing anything in any of them? Okay. Yes. They buy parks, milk them, and destroy them. Because, we all know that's what happened at Geauga Lake, it had nothing to do with the terrible way Six Flags grew and ran the park, nor did it have anything to do with the poor business decision CF made to get ride of the animal side. They purchased it to loose tons of money on it. That makes sense to me.

I really wish life was fair, but in reality, it isn't. That is not due to a mind set it is based on a bad youth, but on the school of hard knocks and experience.

Really? Seriously? A business that provides entertainment not doing what you want it to do equates to a conversation about life being fair?

Cedar Fair is selling me something with an admission ticket, and they do owe me something in return for that transaction.

And if you ever read the agreement on the ticket you purchase, you're purchasing access to the park as is. That is what they offer to you, that's what you pay to get. They're upholding their end, and they even tell you that the park could close early, and that all rides may not even be open.

If you are giving them your money under the assumption they don't owe you anything, why would you ever consider giving them your hard earned money?

Only whiny enthusiasts seem to think that the park owes them something more than what the park currently offers, and that they're paying for something more. The actual vast majority of the population that go to theme parks go based on what the park has right now, and seem to enjoy it, because they keep coming back to MiA year after year, spending a ton of money.

Seriously though. Kings Island destroys any sort of theory about milking and shutting down competing parks to protect Cedar Point. If they bought Geauga Lake to destroy competition why didn't they close Kings Island as well?

If anything, Cedar Fair did us a favor because we all know they bought Kings Island solely to shut down SOB since it was taller than Mean Streak.

~Rob

Tekwardo said:

Because, we all know that's what happened at Geauga Lake, it had nothing to do with the terrible way Six Flags grew and ran the park, nor did it have anything to do with the poor business decision CF made to get ride of the animal side. They purchased it to loose tons of money on it. That makes sense to me.

Except CF never did "get ride of the animal side." CF chose to close a functioning water park and build a new one on the other side of the lake--with no train or skyride or any other way connecting them.

CF's poor business decision at GL, IMO, prove your point: If CF had closed & sold off the animal side and just run the GL side the park would probably be profitable (after removing excess coasters). But, by doubling the footprint of the park--and, hence, its overhead--they overspent and caused financial problems for themselves.

Well, technically the animals went with SF to other parks, but I do think that CF missed an opportunity to put animals at the park, get rid of some of the larger coasters, and maintain it as it was before SF ruined it. But you're pretty spot on with the other stuff too.

To get me to revisit a park over and over, the owner needs to give me (and I don't care what it says on the ticket - because it's read about as many times as Apples software agreement) something beyond the re-ride fix that so many of you seem to thrive on.

But as suggested, it's just a regional, seasonal park. But so is Cedar Point. When they built MI, they didn't sit around and say to themselves - ok guys, we are going to build this park - but it's only going to get "this big". Although, the same thought went through the ownership of the Sandusky property several times in the Brockling era and the property could have easily been residential today as a result.

Cedar Point has a great Beach - but today what's the % of visitors each year that go there? Even Matt O. has stated, it's underutilized. And, it's on Lake Erie, the nastiest of all the lakes around.

CP is at it's square footage capacity, and actually had to remove rides to install Gatekeeper and Luminosity. Yet, MI gets practically nothing, and has ton's of room to expand. Having the headquarters of Cedar Fair on the peninsula also makes zero sense unless you accept the fact that this is always going to be the home fort that is protected at all costs. Move that operation to another property like MI, and watch those capital dollars follow.

MI has the potential (as with several other parks in the chain) to be a powerhouse, but Cedar Point will always be the Flagship park. Big brother is never going to let junior take over his thunder.

Kings Island is not a threat to the Detroit/Cleveland customer market and serves Cincinnati patrons quite well. I suspect they will continue to get more than their share of capital $ now that Kentucky Kingdom is on the verge of once again becoming a competitor in that market.

So would it shock you if CF bought Kentucky Kingdom and promptly set it ablaze?

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think there was some perceived competition between SFWoA and CP otherwise we wouldn't have seen the coaster building boom that we saw from '99 - '03 in northern Ohio.

However, I still don't think GL was originally bought to get shutdown. We can rehash everything all we want but in the end the park wasn't drawing people anymore. I think they gave it a good try, don't you remember the confusing season pass options during that time? It wasn't until the Paramount Park purchase in '06 that it made more sense to strip down an overbuilt park and send cheap but notable cap-ex projects to the rest of the chain.

Edit: Oh and "Cedar Point does not have a space problem" TM

~Rob

Everyone seems to point to CF buying the Geauga Lake property as an arguing jump off point for a plethora of business ideas.

But no one seems to look at Six Flags buying the Geauga Lake property. And, oddly enough, that's where the truth lies. (especially in the context of this discussion and the potential expansion of Michigan's Adventure)

So here goes:

Six Flags bought Geauga Lake, rebranded it, built it up big and fast and was forced to sell it 4 years later at a huge loss.

It didn't become the new Disney World. It's didn't compete in any meaningful way with Cedar Point. It just failed...miserably.

Let that soak in for a minute. Read it again.

And this is probably the funniest thing I've ever read in 12 years of business discussion on CoasterBuzz:

SnoopyDoo said:

MI has the potential (as with several other parks in the chain) to be a powerhouse, but Cedar Point will always be the Flagship park. Big brother is never going to let junior take over his thunder.

So they have the potential to create multiple regional powerhouses thoughout the country, increase profitability by huge amounts, show unprecedented growth, raise the stock value and provide massive dividends for investors...but they won't because of some kind of emotional attachment to the 'home' park?

Wow. That's a hell of theory right there.

SnoopyDoo said:

Yet, MI gets practically nothing, and has ton's of room to expand. Having the headquarters of Cedar Fair on the peninsula also makes zero sense unless you accept the fact that this is always going to be the home fort that is protected at all costs.

It takes everything I've got not to call you names, or at least apply adjectives to you that describe how ridiculous you are. Are you really saying that having room to expand is business justification to do so? Yes or no question. You really believe that?

I assume you'll say yes, because the idea that a business wants one unit to succeed and another to just idle, despite the obvious disservice that would be to investors and the balance sheet, is just as absurd.

I want to do a point by point reply, but all of the nonsense spewed in his post was discussed in my first post.

Cedar Point the amusement park sprung up from Cedar Point the beach resort destination, not the other way around. And none of the parks CF owns is in any way comparable to any Disney Park.

But I'm not going to continue because there's really no point.

Disney and Universal have expanded to run park locations globally, but they never have opened any that directly compete with each others patrons. They are smarter than that, and have learned through Disney Quest and other such ventures (Disney stores, etc.), it only creates rivalry and ultimately cheapens the brand.

Both have also never claimed a flagship location, and keep each park/vacation destination/cruise distinct enough that they have their own personality - yet are complete enough provide everything you expect.

Having Cedar Fair recruit a former Disney executive (Matt O.) proves that they want to have leadership that capitalizes on this sort of thinking, but it's going to take time for that one man to overcome the empire he now presides over.

Can he do it? Only time will tell.

They're not going to do it. Disney parks are resorts that are built in areas where they can operate year round. Cedar Point is a seasonal resort park, and the rest of the parks are regional amusement parks (their words, not mine).

And last I checked, The Magic Kingdom in Orlando has 3 competing parks right near it. Disneyland has a competing park across the way. Disneyland Paris? Ditto. Tokyo Disneyland? There's a competing park there too, built by Disney.

Disney resorts are destinations. You Can't Compare Disney Parks to Cedar Fair. Cedar Fair is not in competition with itself.

And you didn't answer Jeff's yes or no question. Please answer that.

Lord Gonchar said:

And this is probably the funniest thing I've ever read in 12 years of business discussion on CoasterBuzz:

SnoopyDoo said:

MI has the potential (as with several other parks in the chain) to be a powerhouse, but Cedar Point will always be the Flagship park. Big brother is never going to let junior take over his thunder.

So they have the potential to create multiple regional powerhouses thoughout the country, increase profitability by huge amounts, show unprecedented growth, raise the stock value and provide massive dividends for investors...but they won't because of some kind of emotional attachment to the 'home' park?

This is proven with what is going on down in Carowinds. The Charlotte area is one of the fasting growing areas in the country. The $50 million over the next few years is no accident. Cedar Fair is going where the money is, and the thought that they would not because they favor the flagship park is insane.

But we sane folks already knew that.

And Cedar Fair just opened (or are getting ready to open) a Satellite office in Charlotte...

Edit: Yup, it's already opened a satellite corporate office in Charlotte:

http://www.cedarfair.com/ir/press_releases/index.cfm?current_root=15&mode=story&story_id=388

No fair reading ahead, you guys! :)

Yeah, that was the next logical step of the argument. Where there is growth potential, it's being exploited.

Answer: Yes. CF will let MA exist in its current state until it falters. Then it will close and relocate its assets.

Having Cedar Fair recruit a former Disney excutive (Matt O.) proves that they want to have leadership that capitalizes on this sort of thinking, but it's going to take time for that one man to overcome the empire he now presides over.

.......no, not really. Hiring Matt Ouimet proves that the board thought he was the best qualified to lead the company in accordance with their plans/goals for the corporation. I doubt that would be to turn Cedar Fair into a Disney-esque global titan.

To get me to revisit a park over and over, the owner needs to give me (and I don't care what it says on the ticket - because it's read about as many times as Apple's software agreement) something beyond the re-ride fix so many of you seem to thrive on.

Just because you don't read the fine print on your ticket doesn't make it any less of a binding contract. The owner does not need to give you anything but what you agreed to accept when you used that ticket to access the park. If you don't like that, don't buy the ticket.

As Lord Gonchar noted, your whole argument -- that Cedar Fair is deliberately not building MiA up into a major resort in order to protect Cedar Point -- undermines its own logic. If MiA indeed does have the potential to be a major resort, Cedar Fair would have happily been tucking the profits from that resort away for years now.

Cedar Point is situated between Detroit, Cleveland, and Columbus. Michigan's Adventure is a solid hour from Grand Rapids and even farther from anywhere else. I'm pretty sure that's why they aren't an overly large park.

Personally, I kind of liked the place, and I've been to every Cedar Fair park, but what do I know?