Kings Island Fast Lane

LostKause said:
How about the keep the regular hours the same, and offer ERT an hour before and/or an hour after? What about that option?

It's not an option, because being open an hour longer requires incurring additional expense.

In fact, the difference in operating hours is another example of how you're not buying anything beyond admission to the park. It's certain a 'controllable' variable, but the park admission stays the same regardless of whether they're open 10, 12 or 14 hours during the summer.

Is that difference unfair? I find it hard to believe VQ is stealing 4 hours of someone's day, but people willingly take four hours less for the same price...and the park offers it.

The value has been lowered.

Absolutely, it has. But not by enough to matter - or even think twice about. (which is where you and I seem to get stuck)

And the net result is still probably a better deal than when the parks do their yearly admission increased of a buck or three.

LostKause said:
How about the keep the regular hours the same, and offer ERT an hour before and/or an hour after? What about that option?

It's not an option, because being open an hour longer requires incurring additional expense.

In fact, the difference in operating hours is another example of how you're not buying anything beyond admission to the park. It's certainly a 'controllable' variable, but the park admission stays the same regardless of whether they're open 10, 12 or 14 hours during the summer.

Is that difference unfair? I find it hard to believe VQ is stealing 4 hours of someone's day, but people willingly take four hours less for the same price...and the park offers it.

The value has been lowered.

Absolutely, it has. But not by enough to matter - or even think twice about. (which is where you and I seem to get stuck)

And the net result is still probably a better deal than when the parks do their yearly admission increased of a buck or three.

As far as the lottery thing goes, it's like that everywhere. Run into McDonald's for lunch? It may be anywhere between busy and slow. The day they offer a faster service line for a higher price is the day that I move to the moon.

Me too. McDonalds is low rent. There's little incentive or payoff for anyone involved. But up the scale a little? Well...

$35 for Insider Access to Hot Tables

Best part is that article also talks about something else I was starting to tell you earlier - it's not fair to begin with and it's all around you without you even knowing it:

"At the best restaurants, more than half of the prime weekend tables are unavailable to the ordinary diner before the reservation books open, typically about a month ahead of time. Tables are set aside for the chef, the maître d’hôtel and friends of the house. Danny Meyer, for example, is required to reserve tables at the Modern for trustees of the Museum of Modern Art."

And they're not slipping a benji, they're doing it out in the open. Because why slip a bill when you can get it thru normal channels.

ERT also makes extra money, so staying open an hour later or opening an hour earlier is still profitable.

The difference in operating hours is totally all about an estimation of how busy the park is going to be. The price may stay the same, but the amount of rides one can ride on a busy day in which the park is open late should be close to the same amount of rides that one can ride on a less busy day in which the park closes earlier.

Restaurants... Slipping the bill goes to the minimum wage slave working the schedule anyways. Why let them make the money when doing it in the open can make the restaurant (normal channels) money instead. I totally see that.

LostKause said:
ERT also makes extra money, so staying open an hour later or opening an hour earlier is still profitable.

But not as much as letting people pay more and keeping the hours the same. And if they're able to do that and keep everything within certain acceptable parameters...well, as I've been saying all along. The current systems work and work well. You just don't think they do.

The difference in operating hours is totally all about an estimation of how busy the park is going to be. The price may stay the same, but the amount of rides one can ride on a busy day in which the park is open late should be close to the same amount of rides that one can ride on a less busy day in which the park closes earlier.

So there's a 'reasonable expectation' of what to expect inside the gate? Where have I heard that before?

Trust me, the parks aren't dumb. With VQ/FOL everything still falls within that reasonable expectation range.

It's not in the park's best interest to gyp a majority of it's customers. So they don't.

Restaurants... Slipping the bill goes to the minimum wage slave working the schedule anyways. Why let them make the money when doing it in the open can make the restaurant (normal channels) money instead. I totally see that.

So why can't you see it in an amusement park?

Thanks Gonch, for the compliment.

Put another way, to paraphrase the guy in charge of parking at a certain univeristy when confronted on the issue of why he oversold the parking lots. "A parking pass isn't a parking space, a parking pass is a license to hunt for a parking space" so to "A park admission ticket is not a ride on the coaster, the admission ticket is a license to try to ride the coaster"

Now all that said, there are ways, even without FOL/VQ to "stack the deck in your favor" that are perfetly within the parks rules. Those are: knowledge of the rides, knowledge of the parks traffic patterns, knowledge of human behaviors" That and having the ability to prioritize your day and the willingness to backtrack or see the park contrary to the way the average park guest does.

You know - park is in a giant Duell Loop, get there first thing and head to the very back of the park, and get those rides out of the way before "the lemmings" can work their way back there. If a ride that is high on your priority list is a shuttle or other low capacity coaster, thats where you head first.

Case study: a few years ago I went to the Magic Kingdom on back to back days. One day I went with a group of people who decided they wanted to do the park in the traditional "leeming" manner. That is you start in either Adventureland or Tomorrowland, and you work your way around the park from ride to ride. Luckily they were willing to use Fastpass as long as they didn't have to do too much backtracking. It too all day, without even stopping for a meal. to hit most of the parks attractions. Base problem: by the time we got to Fantasyland it was jammed, so we spent an inordinate amount of time with all the low capacity Fantasyland stuff.

The next day, I had the morning to myself, and I was going to meet somebody at Studios park in the afternoon. I went back to MK, and just by starting my day in Fantasyland, I as able to do the park in half a day.

From this news item:

For instance, Kings Island is selling a limited number of Fast Lane passes, which enable customers to get into a shorter line at its most popular roller coasters and attractions. The pass costs $50 above the admission fee.

"We are trying to determine how other consumers react to the fact that some people pay more to get up to the front of the line. It is like concert tickets — you want better concert seats, you pay for it," he said.

The test started about 10 days ago, but so far the results are positive. "We found there is a very good appetite for it."

:)

I'll tell you this. As God is my witness, no amusement park I ever operate will be blighted by this scourge...

(do I really need the winkie?)

Although this article is about Broadway shows, and not amusement parks, I think it's relevant to this discussion since it shows how people are willing to pay more for certain privileges, dates, and service points. Check it out:

http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/theater/the_great_white_rip_off_C35t8oahozwgQkGATRgT7O?utm_campaign=Post10&utm_source=Post10Alpha

That article has an abundance of exclamation points!

Price discrimination is popping up like this all over the place, not just in amusement parks. Like concerts and Broadway shows, the more you pay the more you get: I-85 north of Atlanta is about to open a pair of toll lanes where, if you're willing to pay for it, your commute with be shortened.

Interestingly, if you pay for 2 Big Macs at McDonalds, they'll provide you with 2 Big Macs.

LostKause said:
infringing on other people's ride time

It's not your ride time anymore because

LostKause said:
The value has been lowered.

If you want the same amount of ride time, you have to pay more. It has the exact same effect as raising the gate price for everyone.

maXairMike said:
Actually, I can tell you with 100% certainty that this is actually false, as I've seen historical numbers for attractions that were around before a certain group of parks got free VQ (and is often upheld as a standard-bearer). It is actually false to a very large degree on several (if not the majority, I would extrapolate) of the attractions, as wait times generally went up 1.5-2.0x their pre-VQ waits.

As often as this comes up, it's still not particularly relevant. What you describe may in fact be true, but it can be squarely attributed to poor implementation. Poor implementation doesn't mean VQ is bad or can't work. If one uses this data point as a reason to discount the concept as a whole, it's a very baby-bathwater problem.

SFoGswim said:
I-85 north of Atlanta is about to open a pair of toll lanes where, if you're willing to pay for it, your commute with be shortened.

Interesting.

"Tolls will vary dynamically based on the number of vehicles using the HOT lanes to keep the lane free-flowing and provide reliable travel time."

What's funny is I seem to remember someone a few years back in the course of this sort of discussion suggesting this very model for amusement park rides - demand based pricing.

It's works on a pay-per-ride model where the price rises as demand rises and vice versa.

I know it's not necessarily a reasonablly attainable approach in practice, but it's a fun idea to think about.

The dynamic approach seems to be a new way of pricing popping up more and more. Eveything is only worth what someone will pay for it. Why not find out what that number really is and let the market dictate the price?

Hotels and airlines have always priced based on demand. Recently we've seen event-based ticketing (Broadway, MLB, etc) use it to some degree. Now this article about the interstate near Atlanta. Might be time for the parks to realize they are not a commodity and try approaching their business in such a way. Instead of one ticket price, make it demand based. Busy times means higher pricing. Do it inside the park with these VQ/FOL systems too. Longer lines means higher prices to avoid them.

Just seems like such a common sense way to do things.

^^And to me, the other important point is that it doesn't (shouldn't?) have an impact on the morality of the thing, which is Travis' main sticking point.

If it's wrong to do it with large impact, does decreasing the impact somehow make it right? At the end of the day, isn't it all just selling "your" spot to someone else?

^I've wondered for years why parks don't charge significantly more on a Saturday then they do on a Tuesday. You could probably get away with 50% more (with some combination of increases to Saturday and discounts for Tuesday) and make both sets of people happier (less crowds on Sat., cheaper admission on Tues).

Oddly enough, I shell out for EZ-Pass so I don't have to slow down (especially in areas like Chicago and some in OH, where they have the express lanes that you can drive through doing highway speed and it reads your transmitter) - it actually saves me money on tolls, by up to 1/2 at most places. So, again, I pay a little bit of extra money ($6 a year) for faster toll access, and everyone who doesn't pays double what I do.

It's almost the same situation, pay for a premium service and reap the benefits, or live with it the way it's always been and keep complaining.

ApolloAndy said:
I've wondered for years why parks don't charge significantly more on a Saturday then they do on a Tuesday.

Mark my words, it's coming. Maybe before the end of the year. You heard me say it.

Lord Gonchar said:
Might be time for the parks to realize they are not a commodity and try approaching their business in such a way. Instead of one ticket price, make it demand based. Busy times means higher pricing.

Just seems like such a common sense way to do things.

Jeff said:
Mark my words, it's coming. Maybe before the end of the year. You heard me say it.

Oooooh....

I don't think the size of the impact makes it wrong. The significance of the size of the impact is the impact it would have on your profits. If Fast Lane doubled the wait times for the standby line, you would likely see a drop off in standby folks coming to the park impacting your overall profits such that increased revenues from Fast Lane passes wouldn't offset losses from standby folks staying home. That itself wouldn't make the decision to implement Fast Lane "wrong." I would make it just not the best business decision.

Differentiated pricing is becoming much more common. Technology in many cases makes it more feasible. Electric companies are starting to charge more for electricity at high use times and you will see more of that as modern metering makes that more feasible. You will see more disclosure of real time prices allowing customers to decide whether they want to scale back usage until cheaper time slot.