Kings Island Fast Lane

^That's exactly the system at Waldameer. There are scanners at every ride. Although now that I think of it, they're usually placed at the entrance to the station or loading platform where a station op can do double duty running the scanner, not out at the beginning of the queue, which is where Travis' VQ would probably be installed.

Self reference time.

I raved about Morey's wristbands 3 years ago. :)
(points 2, 3 and 12)

And a VQ system that stops people from hopping in other lines, wouldn't stop everything else in the park from becoming as supposedly extra-crowded as VQ makes the ride lines.

People have to be somewhere and if the arguement is that VQ adds significantly to my wait for rides, then if we remove rides from the equation it was significantly clog midways, increase waits for restrooms and drinks and snacks, fill shops with bodies and generally make the entire rest of the experience horrible to deal with.

I'd rather have people in the ride lines...where I can avoid them with my VQ. :)

I hear you guys say it all of the time, and every time you say it I disagree, but never argue... Admission to the park does guarantee rides, attractions, and shows, because the way I see it, if it didn't, why would anyone go.

There is having a different opinion and then there is disputing facts. Your saying that admission to the park does guarantee rides, attractions, and shows isn't factually correct.

I don't know how to explain it better than this:

You paying admission to a park grants (not guarantees) you access to the shows/attractions/shops/restaurants inside the park gate, all of which is not available to you if you don't pay admission. But there is no guarantee that any set number of those shows/attractions/shops/restaurants will be open and/or operating.

First, you're paying admission to access the ones that are.

Second, you're not guaranteed how much access you're given to any of those shops/rides/shows/attractions.

The parks don't really tell you this, but you aren't paying for UNRESTRICTED access to shops/shows/rides/attractions. You're paying to have limited access to those. Some may require you to pay more to access them. All potentially require you to stand in line. Depending on when you go, and how busy the park is, determines how long your wait in line is. But again, you're not given unrestricted access. On certain days, your restricted access may be less restricted by the amount of people there. But the park does not guarantee, nor imply, that you will be able to ride every ride/attraction, see every show, or eat/shop at every restaurant/store. Because even if the park were open for 12 hours, You aren't guaranteed unrestricted access. What restrictions are there?

1) Line length (the most common)
2) some rides/attractions/shops/shows require extra money to access.
3) You could be restricted because of your physical dimensions (too tall, not tall enough, too fat, physical disabilities)
4) Weather
5) Breakdowns
6) Staffing Issues

See, any of those (and there are very likely more, I just picked those as they all seemed the most common) things could restrict you from riding any number of rides. If you show up to the park at 10 am and it starts storming at noon, if the storm is bad enough, every single ride/attraction may shut down, only giving you access to shows/shops/restaurants (Which will likely be further restricted due to the now longer lines containing people that also don't have access to rides/attractions).

So you aren't guaranteed to be able to experience any attractions at all.

You look at it as the worst case scenario, that everything will be closed and nobody will have access to anything, but while that could happen and the park could close when you're there for a normal day (Happens), it's rare. But in any case, you were never given unrestricted access to everything there is to do in the park.

Most POP amusement parks even say so on their websites and near the front gates. The wording is almost the same for all of them too, "Admission to (insert park name here) includes access to all rides, shows, and attractions, except for (add up-charge ride here, add another up-charge attraction here) and (add last up-charge attraction here)."

Exactly! Most parks do say that, and that's what I'm saying. You're granted admission to the park, but that doesn't mean you're guaranteed unrestricted access. Oh, and most parks also have something on their tickets that say they don't give rain checks, and that if you're caught breaking the laws, you're ejected at the park's discretion. So you aren't guaranteed unrestricted access.

Having said that...Fastpass like systems, Qbot systems, and Fastlane systems (All different in that some let you virtually queue, some give you a return time, and some give you front of line access) are higher priced tickets that you pay more for for LESS restrictions on some attractions.

Now, having said all of that, pay attention to this important point: Theme Parks/Amusement Parks/FECs are a Luxury! You never had any rights to any Luxury, regardless of if it's one of those, a concert, a movie, a restaurant, a car, any form of entertainment.

Luxury-"Luxury goods are products and services not considered essential".

You're not guaranteed a luxury. By it's vary nature, you can't 'bribe' a luxury provider in any way, because it isn't essential. You can't bribe a luxury provider because demand is not related to income.

Interesting to read what Wiki says on the subject of Luxury and income elasticity of demand-"Luxury goods are said to have high income elasticity of demand: as people become wealthier, they will buy more and more of the luxury good. This also means, however, that should there be a decline in income its demand will drop."

So by definition, a luxury provider (theme park), which provides a luxury (Access to rides) is not essential for you to live, thereby not being vulnerable to a 'bribe', because as it states, as people become wealthier they can afford more of the luxury, and it is neither immoral, nor illegal to pay more and get more.

Lord Gonchar said:
...And a VQ system that stops people from hopping in other lines, wouldn't stop everything else in the park from becoming as supposedly extra-crowded as VQ makes the ride lines.
...if we remove rides from the equation it was significantly clog midways, increase waits for restrooms and drinks and snacks, fill shops with bodies and generally make the entire rest of the experience horrible to deal with.
I'd rather have people in the ride lines...where I can avoid them with my VQ. :)

My park would have enough restroom stalls, drink and snack counters, shops, and the staff to run them all that that wouldn't matter. That stuff brings in income, and the happier the guest, the more money they will spend. My midways would be large enough to accommodate the extra people as well.

I've always wanted to open my own amusement park, ever since I was five-years-old.

...

Tek, in your your well-written post, the first part is just splitting hairs about the difference between the word "guarantee" and "grants". I totally realize that guarantee is a much more promissory word, and I am not disputing that.

As far as trying to convince me that one can not bribe a provider of luxury services, I'll mention, as an example, handing a Benjamin over to the big guy watching the door a a popular dance club, which is not a luxury, to allow access, or handing some cash to the guy seating tables at a crowded restaurant to put your name on the list? Both examples of a luxury, and both good examples of bribery, imo.

Just look at the definition of bribe. It doesn't exclude luxuries. It offers an example, "The children were given candy as a bribe to be good."

Candy = the bribe (money).
The children = receiver of the bribe (the park)
Whoever gave the candy = bribe giver (the park guest)
Being good = what the bribe is payment for (being allowed to cut in front of everyone else)

Children who behave (be good) is a luxury (imo). lol

If it were not "wrong" to do so, most anyone would want to be allowed to cut in line. Over the last decade or so, amusement parks have took notice of this. The parks are offering to accept money (or bribes) to allow people to cut in line. They clearly name the price that they will accept to allow it. This is they way I have always seen it.

Are you bribing McDonalds to let you take a hamburger by paying them for it?

Nope, that's straight up blackmail. :)

Nope. But if I offered to pay my cashier more money if they served me my burger and fries before serving the person who ordered just before me, I would be bribing them. If they agreed to the terms, they would be accepting my bribe. If more and more people wanted to be served their food before the person in front of them got their food, and McDonald's became aware that they could make money off of it by offering it as a service, it would pretty much be the same as pay-to-cut at the parks.

Even over ten years of SF parks offering Flashpass, I am not going to begin feeling that it is okay for the parks to offer a "perk" of allowing people to cut in line. Cutting in line is wrong, no matter the circumstances.

Vater said:
I still maintain that lines for rides today are no longer (or shorter) on any given day than they were before VQ existed. I remember waiting for eons sometimes back in the 70s and 80s. I also remember, on certain days, having little to no waits. It's the same today...what's the big deal?

Actually, I can tell you with 100% certainty that this is actually false, as I've seen historical numbers for attractions that were around before a certain group of parks got free VQ (and is often upheld as a standard-bearer). It is actually false to a very large degree on several (if not the majority, I would extrapolate) of the attractions, as wait times generally went up 1.5-2.0x their pre-VQ waits.*

*Using averages, as, yes, there were still days when a major attraction would top a 2hr. wait, but it was rare compared to post-VQ.

As much as I'm not a fan of Flashpass/Q-Bots and the like, I look at it like going on a plane and flying first class. The folks in first class get to the destination the same time we do back in cattle class. They are just paying extra (alot extra) for the privilege of bigger seats, better food and booze.

The Flashpass/Q-bot folks are doing the same. They are paying extra (alot extra) for the privilege of not having to stand in line as much, standing in the sun, BS'ing with friends, looking at the eye candy in line, etc.

I do get a kick when someone gets a FlashPass and then realizes the wait times are the same with or without it because the line doesn't start until after the merge point.

As far as trying to convince me that one can not bribe a provider of luxury services, I'll mention, as an example, handing a Benjamin over to the big guy watching the door a a popular dance club...

C'mon Travis. Just because it happens in sitcoms and 90210 doesn't mean that really happens. Because in reality, clubs and bars? They've been charging for access to VIP rooms for several years now. Even so, so what? I'm paying the bouncer more money to get better access to...

...which is not a luxury...

What? Um, Dance clubs are most certainly a luxury. And for the record, I have most certainly on plenty of occasions paid extra for club VIP services. I came to party, not stand in line.

to allow access, or handing some cash to the guy seating tables at a crowded restaurant to put your name on the list?

And again, when does this actually happen? Any restaurant worth paying the maî·tre d' to get in early likely has a reservation list, and if you really want to get in and not pay, you don't slip a benjamin into the maî·tre d', those restaurants already offer the ability to pay for quicker access.

Both examples of a luxury, and both good examples of bribery, imo.

No, both examples of sitcom situations, those don't really happen any more because those places went 'legit' a long time ago and realized that there's no reason to not charge for better access. Trust me, any nice restaurant in any big city I've been in (My sister in law as well as my best friend are both chefs, so I've been forced to be a foodie when I travel over the last few years) doesn't work on the notion that 'slipping a bill' will get you in. Those places advertise better/quicker access.

And again, it's a luxury. It's not an essential part of life, it's not illegal to purchase, it's life as usual in a commercial atmosphere. It's not a bribe. You're paying money for something offered. Bribes are typically paid for something that isn't offered to everyone. These luxury items are available to anyone who wants to pay for them.

Just look at the definition of bribe.

Sure:

1. money or favor given or promised in order to influence the judgment or conduct of a person in a position of trust
2. something that serves to induce or influence

You're using the 2nd definition of the word to explain away something completely different, that has more to do with the first definition.

It doesn't exclude luxuries. It offers an example, "The children were given candy as a bribe to be good." Children who behave (be good) is a luxury (imo). lol

If you look at the first definition, that talks about a bribe given to influence a person of trust. When you're paying for access, you're not influencing anyone. You're paying for a product. Simply because you choose not to believe that as fact doesn't make it true. Paying for an item offered is not a bribe. Bribery is used to purchase a favor. Buying a higher form of luxury isn't a favor, it's a product.

If it were not "wrong" to do so, most anyone would want to be allowed to cut in line.

Anyone is allowed! You just have to purchase the rights to do so. You can do it, I can do it, grandma can do it, heck, even Hitler could do it if he were alive. It isn't 'wrong' to purchase better access. It isn't wrong for a park to offer better access. It's wrong to try and cut the line while not paying for the better access.

Over the last decade or so, amusement parks have took notice of this. The parks are offering to accept money (or bribes) to allow people to cut in line. They clearly name the price that they will accept to allow it. This is they way I have always seen it.

That's your perception, but that's not really whats going on. What really happened is that amusement parks went mainstream and realized that instead of only offering the higher level of luxury they could offer to only a very small amount of people, that they could instead advertise it, keep it limited, and make money off of it. Customers aren't paying to 'influence' the parks to do anything. Parks aren't offering to accept money for influence. Parks are offering a product that people have asked for them to offer. I understand you refuse to accept that fact, but it is not bribery. It is an added luxury.

But if I offered to pay my cashier more money if they served me my burger and fries before serving the person who ordered just before me, I would be bribing them.

That's a totally different scenario that doesn't really relate, but I don't feel like explaining how so since I'm pretty sure I covered that in another post.

Bribes are typically paid under the table (because in many situations, they are illegal or at least are frowned upon by the owners of the business). Kings Island handed me a flyer for Fast Lane when I went by the parking booth. When I got in the park, they had a table set up at the corner of the fountains with big yellow and black signs advertising Fast Lane. A park employee tried to hand me another flyer and asked me if I wanted to buy one. There were signs at various point in the park advertising it. Its just not a bribe. You don't have to like it, but its not a bribe.

I think the focus on luxury status is misplaced as well. Food is not a luxury but that doesn't make it a right. Restaurants can charge higher prices for quicker access or different menu items. Same with grocery stores. Private businesses can set their own pricing/service levels. In essence, Kings Island has increased its prices/changed its service levels very slightly in either case and only with respect to certain guests.

Well, I meant "which IS a luxury", which was my entire point. Dance clubs are a luxury. This topic is cornfusin' mah brain. :p

Whatever you want to call it, allowing people to cut in front of others is still not right, or good, or a nice friendly perk to offer. I'll always see it as wrong no matter what anyone says. "Cutting in line is wrong." Offering to allow it in exchange for money is wrong.

I have no problem with allowing people access to rides without standing in line, but they have to find a way to do it without infringing on other people's ride time in order for me to accept it as a good and right thing. ERT is probably the only way.

I also have not too much of a problem with a VQ system that is really a VQ system, in that everyone still waits their turn, not getting on other rides while they wait. I believe that Disney is touching on this with their new interactive queue VQ systems, but I haven't heard enough about it to be sure.

The words that I use, like bribe and blackmail, are the best way that I can get my ideas on the subject across. They may not be perfect, but the subject is so complicated that it is how I can express it.

Examples, going over definitions of words, elaborate metaphors, and trying to explain why it's not wrong doesn't make it right. Because everyone has differing perspectives and values, we will all see pay-to-cut differently.

I fully respect and appreciate the effort put into the conversation, but after all these years, my mind is not going to change. I am relieved that I am not the only one who feels this way either. Just read the comments on Kings Island's Facebook page when they announced Fast Lane. Approximately a third feels the way I do, a third like the idea but thinks it is too expensive, and a third likes the idea and price altogether.

I even read, from people I do not know, the words "bribe" and "blackmail" in the replies. That kind of made me chuckle a little.

Lord Gonchar said:

Admission to the park guarantees you dick. (other than a day in the park) I'm sure there are unspoken reasonable expectations, but I'd say adding VQ/FOL (in all the various forms I've seen) still puts what you're buying with park admission entirely within the definition of what to reasonably expect.

Umm.. I think that's only guaranteed on a Gay Day at a park.... :)

The notion that General Admission gets you on the rides is demonstrably false. A lot of rides can handle 1,000-1,500 per hour. If a park runs a 12 hour day thats 12,000-18,000 people per day. The problem is the park has an average attendance of 30,000 per day. That means they are knowingly admitting 12,000-18,000 people per day that they know have no chance of riding a particular ride.

Now, it's a bit more fair than that because of those 30,000 guests, a good number of them will be disqualified for not meeting the rider eligibility requirements, still more won't ride because they have no interest in the ride, and some will choose to back away seeing the line. Those are the ones who got the shaft in this fair and equal PoP plan. On the flip side there are those who take more than 1 ride on a ride, taking one of those 12-18,000 seats away from another park guest. for each reride. The current system is really a survuval of the fitest, who can get to the ride first, and is willing to wait the longest.

Perhaps instead of a VQ, you would rahter have a FAET plan (Fair and Equal Ticket), this would involve issuing each rider an individualy coded and biometricaly secured ticket that ensures each guest gets one and only one ride on each of the parks top tier rides. Maybe couple this with limiting attendance to 12,000-18,000 (by charging luxury level ticket prices)) Like the ride and want to try it again, sorry that wouldn't be fair to the guests who haven't gotten a chance to ride yet.

Of course some people will invoke the trope of "Screw the rules, I have money!" and just buy another ticket. Maybe instead a a second entrance for priority board, we have two lanes, one for people taking their very first ride, and the other for those taking extra rides, where the rules are nobody from the reride line rides as long as there is anybody in the first timers line"

Actualy, that would be a queue design chalenge as at open the first time line will be long and the reride line short, and at the end of the night the reride line is long, and the first time line is short. This would lead to a capitalistic park allowing people to say, ride again through the much shorter first time line for a modest $10/ride fee. And there we are back where we were.

67440Dodge said:

Lord Gonchar said:

Admission to the park guarantees you dick. (other than a day in the park) I'm sure there are unspoken reasonable expectations, but I'd say adding VQ/FOL (in all the various forms I've seen) still puts what you're buying with park admission entirely within the definition of what to reasonably expect.

Umm.. I think that's only guaranteed on a Gay Day at a park.... :)

Post ov the week!

67440Dodge said:

Lord Gonchar said:

Umm.. I think that's only guaranteed on a Gay Day at a park.... :)

Speak for yourself. I'm not that kinda boy ;)

Then you're doing it wrong ;-).

Tekwardo said:
Then you're doing it wrong ;-).

Clint! You Jezebel!

Coasterville Dave said:
The notion that General Admission gets you on the rides is demonstrably false. A lot of rides can handle 1,000-1,500 per hour. If a park runs a 12 hour day thats 12,000-18,000 people per day. The problem is the park has an average attendance of 30,000 per day. That means they are knowingly admitting 12,000-18,000 people per day that they know have no chance of riding a particular ride.

I really enjoy most of your posts, Dave. This bit of genius is no exception. :)

LostKause said:
I have no problem with allowing people access to rides without standing in line, but they have to find a way to do it without infringing on other people's ride time in order for me to accept it as a good and right thing.

And as long as you keep seeing it that way, you're going to be pissed. It's your issue to work out. The parks are goinf to keep doing it. People are going to keep using it. And the world isn't going to collapse around any of us because of it.

There's nothing inherently unfair about offering people a choice - to stick with buying admission and playing the ride lottery or to invest in VQ/FOL and guaranteee some ROI.

ERT is probably the only way.

What if the park offered buy-in ERT sessions on a daily basis but closed the park an hour earlier (or opened an hour later) than they did this year to accomodate it?

How about the keep the regular hours the same, and offer ERT an hour before and/or an hour after? What about that option?

Give people the same value that they got at the beginning of this season, before allowing people to cut for a fee. King's Island's value just went down.

The only problem I have is that people are cutting in front of me unless I pay extra. The value has been lowered.

As far as the lottery thing goes, it's like that everywhere. Run into McDonald's for lunch? It may be anywhere between busy and slow. The day they offer a faster service line for a higher price is the day that I move to the moon.