Kingda Ka Media Day postponed.

One thing I've always been curious about - does anyone know how Intamin's other business sectors perform? I should know since I'm kind of in that industry, but I don't ... are their people-movers as overly complex, easily breakable and maintenance-intensive as their amusement rides?

Perhaps Intamin never thought that an operator is capable of telling if a train is past a certain point without a computer's help ... a computer that's then put outside and exposed to the elements ... seems pretty simple to me, but I'm no electrical engineer ...

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Jeff said:
Any ride with a thousand switches has a horrible control system, as far as I'm concerned. No amusement ride should be that complex.

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This must be Apple's next venture. Where's my iPod Roller Coaster Control?

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Impulse-ive said:
Perhaps Intamin never thought that an operator is capable of telling if a train is past a certain point without a computer's help ... a computer that's then put outside and exposed to the elements ... seems pretty simple to me, but I'm no electrical engineer ...

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I don't even think it's that. Ride should be idiot proof, but I think most of them are without being as complex as Dragster. Magnum's control system won't let you dispatch a train until the previous one has cleared the lift (plus a few seconds equaling the top of the 2nd hill). I assume most coasters are the same way. Intamin has sensors like every foot on Dragster. That would make sense if they were moving the trains in pairs within a few feet of eachother, but they are not. They don't move the next one up until the block in front is clear. Why do they need the exta 8 or 9 pairs of sensors in there?

here's a thought.... just push the green button!!... I don't care that it is confusing or not... just that I go 128.... if too slow, I get to go again.... it too fast, I get more air time!

when you guys learn the detail of a reactor and its controls.. then we'll talk about control systems

If I remember the press releases correctly, the intention was to have Dragster trains move all at once through the unload and load blocks. Considering that this process has not been used, I'm assuming that it was causing more problems than could have been benefited by the extra pph. (This kind of reminds me of Vekoma and the plan to have their flying coasters recline on the lift, which was dropped on X-Flight because of several problems.)

A media day opening was postponed, big deal. This is heavy machinery that carries people at high speeds and height. Is it really worth the risk to get it open a few days earlier?

The media already tried to portray the industry as unsafe when so much happens as a train stopped on the lift during a power outage. Just imagine the fallout from a deadly accident because a park felt pressured to open a ride.

Seems selfish, no matter who the operator of the park is.

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redman822 said:
Rhino - it's (most likely) an attempt to keep temperatures down. Asphalt/blacktop absorbs a LOT of solar radiation making the areas hotter.

There have been studies that show that lighter/more reflective colors for paved surfaces keep the temperatures down.

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Your exactly correct about the attempt to keep temperatures down. Most of Great Adventure is cobblestone, tile or cement, which actually do not conduct as much heat as blacktop. I have not been to the park yet this year but notice it is all the blacktop that is painted, thank God. I wish Southern Parks would adopt this, on one trip to PKD it was over a 100 air temp and way higher than that when walking the midways. Needless to say it cut down our time at the park.

We shall see if this works, but for one I am happy that they are trying this to see if they can keep the ground temps cooler.

Ed

I have never seen a ride in my life that so many people want to fail.

Why is this? Hmmmm.

They could just build more trees...;)

But seriously, misting fans, fountains, trees, painted walkways, etc. are all important to keeping guests comfortable....they stay longer, they spend more....and are happy about it! :)

Even concrete is better than blacktop, which basically roasts your *guests*, LOL...who's cooking for dinner at Hannibal land? ;)

Back to Ka, at THOSE speeds and heights, a little more *error-proofing*...."it's a good thing"...

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SteelMonsters said:

Intamin manages to outbid other manufacturers. They have an advantage over others because they design their own control systems. They also manage to use much less steel when not needed and usually don't have any more cracking problems.

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I know for a fact that there are Intamin rides that have had trouble with cracking. Combine this with the Control System complexities they have and the bottom line is that people do not buy Intamin Rides for their reliablility. The Intamin ride experience is awesome-when it is working.

Edit-fixing quoting format *** Edited 4/19/2005 4:25:35 AM UTC by Mustang***

Hey the blue midways look cool! And as for Boardwalk, that's one more tree than was ever there (there wasn't any trees at all as far as I can remember--it's a boardwalk area afterall). Wow, are they pumping major money into Great Adventure this year.

Its all Jealousy, Ted. I hope it runs and runs well. I'm not personally that excited about it, though I know that if it is, indeed, like TTD, I'll probably just like the launch and thats it.

But I really hope it works for SFGAdv, and I hope they keep it up and running. Still don't understand the CPFanboy mantra of "it must fail", cause even as Jeff said, TTD wasn't a success in the opening weeks for uptime either...

It still isn't a success for uptime! :)

As for cracking issues - the one with the wheel assembly is scary if it's true, but I'm guessing if it is an issue, it has been taken care of. But as for cracks in the track and supports, I think people would be surprised how much welding goes on. The bottom of a first drop is a common place for problems since so much downward force is placed on the track and supports. I can tell you that Intamins, B&Ms, and Arrows all crack sometimes.

Kingda Ka does have fewer sensors. This is partly due to running only 4 trains as well as a simplified launch. This is the main reason for the holding brake just past the top to prevent excessive speed on the way down.

I can't see how the launch was simplified. They need all of the sensors for the brakes. They need the sensors in the launch position to ensure that the train properly engages the catch car. They need the sensors for the catch car to help prevent over-traveling. The catch car needs to have reversing sensors to slow and position it. There needs to be speed, pressure, position, and temperature sensors/switches for hydraulic operation and accident prevention.

When it comes to moving trains, TTD is excessively complex even when running as intended. The way it runs now it would need 11 sensors per block at most for all but the brake and launch areas.
1) A pair for the front, middle and end of the block. These help the PLC keep track of where the trains are at to stop them in the correct positions. The end are the sensors that stop the train. (6 total)
2) An approach sensor will slow the train if it needs to stop in the block before reaching the end. (1)
3) A pair past the block to clear it after the train exits. (In the block-reset position to the right, most of the sensors you see are in this position.) (2)
4) A pair of sensors past the block but before the front of the next block that indicate to the PLC that a train has over-traveled. (2)

NOTES:
A) All sensors are in the middle unless otherwise specified.
B) If any sensors fail to activate or activate in the wrong order and the block clears, E-stop. There is also conditions that will E-stop the ride if any of the sensors fail by activating when nothing is there. Both modes of failure are covered.
C)Links: http://www.pointbuzz.com/Gallery.aspx?i=713
This shows the middle and right(block reset) sensors positions. http://www.pointbuzz.com/topthrilldragster-v.htm
Waiting shows a good video that show train stopping as well as sensor positions.

Currently there are around 40 block resets, an extra pair for slowing trains down depending on speed, plus all of the sensors I mentioned above. With the 11 sensors above they could do MF type train movements without much trouble.

As for track cracking, Wicked Twister and Xcelerator both had excessive problems with cracking. Both were built in the same year, both were modified within a year. Other than that, Intamin has comparable issues with cracking as any other manufacturer.

As for MF's wheel assemblies, the following photos will show you.

1) http://www.pointbuzz.com/Gallery.aspx?i=1182
This photo taken in 2000 by Jeff shows the welded frame. It's in a Pi shape with 3 pieces welded into one. They crack at the tension area on the inside between the wheel and the pivot point. The crack extends perpendicular from the inside edge outward.

2) http://www.pointbuzz.com/Gallery.aspx?i=2125
This photo taken by Walt in the last few month shows the old welded frame. No suprise that the train still has them on since it's what the ride came with.

3) http://www.pointbuzz.com/Gallery.aspx?i=2111
This photo taken by Walt at the same time as the photo in #2: http://www.pointbuzz.com/Gallery.aspx?i=2126
You can clearly see the steel is thicker and in a U shape that is not welded. The end-piece that contacts the rubber pad is separate and bolted onto the U frame. Much better design. You can also see inside of the assembly. Notice how it wraps around the track. If a wheel fails, the car will skid on it. Most of the guide wheel assemblies were replaced, there are a few of the welded frames left that haven't cracked and are in lower stress points of the train.

The guide wheel did crack and the assembly ended up skidding. That caused it transfer the force from the wheel to the assembly preventing it from breaking off completely. The train didn't roll back because they are too heavy and go fast. If it happened when the wheels were cold and the train empty or partly loaded, then it could have. The bearings combined when cold produce a huge amount of added friction. It takes a lot to make the trains roll back when the ride is fully loaded and the bearings warm.

Edit: Failed attempt at coding links... *** Edited 4/20/2005 5:00:09 AM UTC by SteelMonsters***

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dexter said:
Even though SF has a bad reputation for some things, it may be possible that they aren't screwing around with this one. I'm sure they will open KK as soon as they can, because this ride is a really big deal.

Patience, young coaster enthusiasts. Don't get so worked up over something as small as a new ride opening a little later than expected. There is a lot more to life. Play some video games, go outside and enjoy a bike ride, get a girl/boyfriend to kiss and hug, serve some soup at the local homeless shelter, become a Big Brother or Big Sister (well, some of you might want to become a little instesd ), but find SOMETHING to take coasters off of your mind for a little while if it means bellyaching over something so small.

(Rolls eyes and shrugs.)

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Well said. :-D

It's not like KK is sinking or anything, guys.......sheesh! ;-) It will be there.

I could really care less when it opens. There is absolutely nothing you can do to control it and I am sure SFGAdv and Intamin are doing what they can to get this puppy fired up. I can't wait to ride it being the launch-lusting fangirl I am, but there ARE more important things in life, I think. ;-)

I am going in early June and don't really expect anything other than having a great time at a park with friends. I HOPE it's open of course. Oh MAN do I hope so. But if it isn't, there is always Nitro, Medusa and Batman. Being that they are postponing Media Day is not the end of the world.

It's........just.......a.........coaster. :-)

-Tina

*** Edited 4/20/2005 10:27:47 AM UTC by coasterqueenTRN***

Thanks for explaining the wheel assemblies Steelmonster. I learn more each day :).

As for the launch, it was my understanding that a lot of computing power goes into weighing each train on Dragster as well as accounting for temperature and wind speed to adjust the power of the launch. Is this true or false? I'm not always sure what to believe anymore.

Kingda Ka has eliminated at least 1 of these factors by using the hold brake at the top. This should (unfortunately) reduce the number of rollbacks as well. At least, this is what I was told during my walk back last month. I wish I asked more questions during this time but it was snowing and cold so we were rather rushed.

Regardless, the ride is working fine and will open soon.

TTD did not have any of those in 2003. The main factor in the bias stepping is the last train time. There is a timer that indicates the time from the end of the launch untill the train clears the tower. The train clears the tower as the last car passes the peak. The system trys to maintain between 6.5 and 7.5 seconds. Any less and it steps the pressure bias down, any more and it steps it up. At just over 10 seconds, the ride E-stops.

TTD did get an anemometer for 2004 to measure wind speed at the top of the tower. Wind has a big effect that can change fast, especially around the lake.

As for temperature, there are some for the hydraulics, but the bias can easily compensate for weather changes.

There is no easy way to add weight sensors. Weight changes aren't much of an issue most of the time. Easing in seats is the more effective way to prevent rollbacks.

If Kingda Ka's bias maxes out, the ride sites for a certain period of time, or there is an error produced, the next train has a high chance of rolling back. There probably will be less periods of the ride rolling back consistently.

For those of you playing at home, a new Coasters After Dark event has been scheduled for May 6th. Guess what that means?

I personally think that the problem in neither the ride nor getting it certified. If you look at the pictures of the new area of the park it is not even near done. Remember, there are a lot of other attractions surrounding this coaster. Sure kingda ka may be ready, but the temple of the tiger, kiddie rides, and the jungle scenery is incomplete.

THE FACT IS THAT THEY DID FALL BEHIND IN THIS AREA OF THE PARK, BUT NOT SO MUCH WITH KINGDA KA AS OTHER THINGS!

Everybody needs to calm down, when it opens it WILL have a massive 5hr. line which will be the next thing on people's complaint list!