Intamin & CP

Don't be a jerk talk about who has common sense. If you can't make an argument without making it about someone's personality, go to some other site.

And you should do your homework. If your bling-worthy dad's friends bought three cars at those price points, average cost to the deal was just over invoice after dealer incentives and rebates. But you're only 17 and likely haven't purchased many cars yet, so you don't know that car dealers make it their job to feel good and screw you anyway.

You've yet to present any evidence that supports your theory, again, other than the fact they bought said rides. You're too busy name calling.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
DELETED! What time does the water show start?

Whatever Jeff, maybe before you get all critical you should read my posts. My dad's friend wasn't the guy buying the car, he worked at the dealership. If you aren't able to take that much out of the post how can you have any credibility to read the rest of the posts right? For the last time, footers for TTD being poored before WT and Xcel even opened is proof enough.

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"This time I think ... I think it's ... it's going to work!" - Dr.Bruce Banner

Well, I have been involved in purchasing equipment from $100K to $1.2 million. Typical business practice has the purchaser writing up the specs of the item to be purchased, placing these on a RFP (request for proposal), and sending it out to all availible bidders.

When the equipment manufacturer receives the RFP and knows it's been sent to all of his competitors, he knows he has to 'sharpen his pencil' and give the best deal he can, or he'll loose the contract. This is done for each piece; if it is all grouped into one, there's no competition, and that's when the manufacturer can gouge the price. Most companies don't allow contracts to be written for multiple items because it negates the bidding process. Normally, three bids are required.

Even if the purchaser has a bias toward a certain manufacturer, it's the bidding process keeps the price down.

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Without the chaindog, you'd never get up the lifthill...

IOArules:

First, A contract for a ride would have been done a couple years in advance. Period. Rides take time to develop, pieces must be manufactered and moved(I'm not sure, does Intamin have a U.S. manufacturer for their parts like B&M? If not, then parts from Europe must be brought here), etc. etc.

Footers being poured when they're given a chance(i.e. before Xcel) just shows smart business practices, but it in no way says there was a contract for X amount of rides to be purchased from Intamin, It just shows that an Agreement had been made After Xcel's and that since they were already in a footer pouring mood, they thought they might just pour these and save time later. Xcel Opened when? TTD how long after?

Again, a seperate contract for Xcel may have been signed. One day, CF decides to put in WT, so there is another contract. A few months later(after WT has been approved and such) CF decides to go again with Intamin for TTD. 3 seperate contracts have been made, even if they exist during the same time period. That still dosen't mean there was one "End all" Contract for 3/4 or how ever many attractions. CF was just pleased with Intamin, who was giving them a lower price to keep their business, and giving them what they wanted.

That is the common sense you're telling others about, Sorry you don't have a handle on it yet.

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Brought to you by mOOSH, the #1 name in family fun:)

Dragsters footers were poured in April of 02, long after Xcelerator opened and long after construction on WT was finished.

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If given the choice I'd choose a hamburger over a hotdog anyday of the week.

Thanks, didn't know bout that one, IOA seems to think it was done same time. That just goes to prove my point, and disprove him more:).

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Brought to you by mOOSH, the #1 name in family fun:)

Xcelerator opened on June 22nd 2002.

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"This time I think ... I think it's ... it's going to work!" - Dr.Bruce Banner

And construction was done for how long? And testing had been going on for how long?

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If given the choice I'd choose a hamburger over a hotdog anyday of the week.

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MagnumForce said:
Dragsters footers were poured in April of 02, long after Xcelerator opened and long after construction on WT was finished.

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Oh wait, it wasn't you who said that was it? Oh my bad, yea it was.

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"This time I think ... I think it's ... it's going to work!" - Dr.Bruce Banner

The question is: When was Xcel's contract signed?

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Without the chaindog, you'd never get up the lifthill...

So I misspoke, you have been contradicting yourself for two pages.

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If given the choice I'd choose a hamburger over a hotdog anyday of the week.

Contradicting myself, how so? I don't go on mistating easily researchable facts, then using these facts as proof in a debate then going back on my word a post later saying oh what I said in my last post didn't matter.

Look, can you honestly say you know 100% sure Cp went to Intamin requesting an imulse in the first place? Think about it, this is Cp, America's Roller Coast, home to long record breaking coasters, that at their time of construction have no equals. Shuttle coasters aren't associated with CP, they are assoicated with SF and Paramount parks. If you want to use the argument that they just wanted to oust SFWOA and S:UE, then why didn't they feel the need to oust other popular rides like B:KF and X-Flight?

As in the interview on sixflagsnews.com Cp went to Intamin about breaking the 400ft barrier after MF. I assume the reason being is that MF was quickly dethroned as the tallest ride in the world. Intamin probabaly mentioned to them the concept of the hydraulic launch while it was still in development while MF was in planning/construction phase. So Cp goes back after MF is opened and says well remember that new concept you have, we want one that will break the 400ft barrier. Intamin says well thats asking a lot, especially with no prototype built yet. Cp/Cf says well another park in our chain is in need of a ride.

So they talk some more. Knotts now gets Xcel as the prototype version, and Cp is told the imperfections of the concept will be worked out and they will have theirs in 03. Then Cp realises two years without expansion just won't do in their market, because most people are accustomed to the point of Cp getting a new major attraction every other year. Intamin tells Cp they will give them a good deal on this new impulse coaster they have that should put the one at SFWOA to shame. Cp agrees becuase THEY KNOW THE DESIGN IS TRIED AND TESTED, so they then sign for the 3 coaster deal. Footers are installed for TTD during WT's and Xcel's construction just to make sure Cp doesn't go back on their deal if something happens with Xcel.

If you don't want to believe this fine, but ask yourself some questions about how much different the expansion of WT and TTD was handled. Why would Cp all of a sudden have the urge to add an impulse? When is the last time Cp built two coasters (and no, kiddie coasters don't count) in consecutvie years? When is the last time footers were installed for a future ride during anothers construction? In the past Cp was known for just constructing bigger better versions of tried and proven designs, why would they all of a sudden build a 400ft coaster that they had no idea how it would perform?

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"This time I think ... I think it's ... it's going to work!" - Dr.Bruce Banner

CP Execs basically came out and flat told us that they wanted to "Out WoA, WoA" What makes that so hard to understand?

WT filled 2 niches that CP didn't have, a launched ride, and a shuttle ride.

Everything CP has built in the last 25 years was the tallest, fastest, or loopiest of its kind when built. Taking that same idea to an Impulse coaser does not seem like a stretch to me.

And then the fact that CP never stated they wanted to go higher after Millie, but faster. the one thign that stuck out to them was the speed and they thought they needed somethign that really accentuated the speed.

And TTD's footers were not put in till vertical construction on WT and Xcelerator was finished.

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If given the choice I'd choose a hamburger over a hotdog anyday of the week.

*** This post was edited by MagnumForce 8/10/2003 5:19:26 PM ***

I didn't see anything in writing from CP exces that said they came out and said they wanted to out WOA. Like I said why didn't they build a floorless to out B:KF, a flyer to out X-Flight, or a woodie to out Villain? Those are all niches Cp hasn't yet covered except for a woodie, but comparing Villain to Mean Streak is like Mantis to Iron Wolf. Plus seeing as they purchased WT and TTD at the same time it's not like they were going to be in any need of a launch coaster. If they just wanted to go faster than MF then why did they spend 25million to go 120ft higher as well?

Plus why do you keep saying TTD's footers were not put in until vertical construction on WT and Xcel was finished? It really doesn't mean anything, cause first of all unless you were trespassing in the park I don't see how you would know, secondly, even if they were installed after those two rides structures went up, it was a week or so after, before CP had even opened and way before Xcel opened to the public.

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"This time I think ... I think it's ... it's going to work!" - Dr.Bruce Banner

Janice Witherow herself said they rode S:UE, liked it, and wanted one of their own.

And like I said, Dragsters footers were not poured until the middle of April and it took no tresspassing to get that bit of knowledge.

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If given the choice I'd choose a hamburger over a hotdog anyday of the week.

IOArules said:
I didn't see anything in writing from CP exces that said they came out and said they wanted to out WOA.

I also don't see anything in writing that says CP can't build a shuttle coaster. Just because they hadn't done it before WT, doesn't mean that they can't.

Regardless of whether or not Intamin and CP had this deal you're talking about, none of us know. I just don't see how you can go on being so positive that they signed for these all at once. You're proof is basically just hypothetical stories and situations you've created.
*** This post was edited by Krypton 8/10/2003 7:20:58 PM ***

Good call.

No, Intamin doesn't have any state-side manufacturing that I'm aware of. Shortly after MF was announced we looked into doing a story about getting the parts here when I worked on Transportation & Distribution magazine. What we learned wasn't interesting enough to do a story on, but that's when I found out through a customs broker in Detroit that the ride had come in intermodal starting December '98. (Intermodal is supply chain language for shipping using a variety of methods, generally trains and truck. In this case it came in through the Canadian port of Montreal by ship, by train to Detroit and the rest by truck.)

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
DELETED! What time does the water show start?

They may be hypothetical stories, but it appears there is more proof of a multi-ride deal than not. Cedar Point isn't known for adding brand new concepts that havn't been proven. If Cp/Cf hadn't signed a multi contract deal then why didn't Cp just wait until 04' to add TTD? It would've given them more time to monitor and perfect Xcel. There was no need to rush the construction of TTD and add coasters back to back years. Really, the only way to explain adding two consecutive coasters, was that there was a contract. Why is it so hard to understand that if a customer purchases multiple products from a supplier a deal would be struck to get them at a lower cost? And don't say big budget businesses don't do it, Boeing does it with nearly every airline they do business with. Boeing is assured financial stability for a given period of time and they take a big chunk out of the total cost of the dozen or so planes the airline buys. There is nothing special about the amusement industry that makes it work different than any other.

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"This time I think ... I think it's ... it's going to work!" - Dr.Bruce Banner

To clear up the discrepency about when TTD's construction started compared to when WT finished, just check CP's site, no trespassing needed. TTD's site was first escevated on 4/1/02, and WT's structure was topped off in the middle of February. Not saying this has substantial meaning, just wanted to set it straight.

For the record, I think IOA's points, while presented well, are all circumstantial and have no factual base whatsoever. But that's just my opinion, please continue the debate!

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CP 2K3: 15
"What are you, a dentist? Or a hippie? Or some kind of hippie dentist?" -strong bad

What makes everyone think that buying multiple coasters at once would substantially reduce cost? We're not talking about buying toilet paper in bulk here, we are talking about unique, one of a kind roller coasters. You get discounts when you purchase things that are mass produced, not a custom, one of a kind order.

If Cedar Fair was going to install identical coasters at each one of their parks, they may receive a small break in price, but each of these coasters were unique and had to be engineered from scratch. There was no way for Intamin to save any time/manpower/money, so there was no way for Intamin to pass any savings on to Cedar Fair.

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I regret to inform you that Cedar Point's newest roller coaster, Top Thrill Dragster will not be operational today, or tomorrow or probably any day that you decide to visit our park. Please accept our apologies.