I 305 gets trim on the first drop

I'm not sure on the exact dates, but Mantis had seatbelts added in 1999. If I had to guess, the trim was added next, and then finally one train was removed in 2001. Gotta love those seatbelts!

I too was fortunate enough to get a few circuits (4) on I-305 (pre-lift-trim). I rode it on Saturday of opening weekend. I'm mostly glad I got to ride it in that state so I have a comparison for when I ride it in August. From the moment I rode it I felt that these trims would be added. I felt that would be acceptable if trims were removed from the bunny hill and they have been. Now, the only thing left to satisfy me would be the installation of the nylon restraints. That too, seems to be coming. So, unlike many of the nay-sayers, I am actually optimistic about the changes they have made and are still making.

Jeff said:

LostKause said:
If the trim on Manis' firsts drop is to maintain interval, and I'm not saying that it's not, then why didn't they simply slow the lift speed down? Did they figure that slowing the lift was somehow more expensive than adding a trim, or what?

Haven't we gone over this several times now? The speed of the lift has no significant impact on the speed at the bottom of the first drop. Ever.

But slowing the lift will increase the time it takes the train to come back around to the safety brakes because it will spend more time on the lift, even if it spends the same amount of time on the course. That will give the next train more time to load up and get out of the way.

That's a good question. Why don't you write that down and ask at Coastermania? ;-)

The only (amateur) answer I can think of is that either the lift motor is very specific or the computer expects a block to be empty within a certain time limit or it e-stops.

(regarding Mantis:TCFKAB)
Assuming that the real answer is timing...

We have already established that the speed of the lift has a negligible effect on train speed.

If that is true, then changing the speed of the lift will have NO EFFECT on the speed of the train through the rest of the course.

If the limiting factor is the amount of time it takes for the train to get through the "B" block, which is to say the block that starts at the lift hill PONR and ends at the end of the mid-course block brake, then changing the lift speed will not have any effect on the amount of time spent in the "B" block. It will only affect the amount of time spent in the "A" block, which is not what needed to be tweaked.

To make the "B" block take longer requires slowing the train in the "B" block.

That said, I don't think it adequately explains why the brake is on the first drop unless there were other issues as well, such as forces applied in the vertical loop. The brake could have been put on either side of the loop instead of on the first drop.

The brake was added, I believe, either during the '97 season or before the '98 season. Chang is basically the same layout as Mantis:TCFKAB but it has a taller lift hill, and I think to compensate, all of the elements are up a little higher...that is, what Mantis:TCFKAB does "on the ground", Chang does a few feet up in the air.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

If a train can be loading while another is on the hill, and the ascending train is slowed, does that not give the other train more time for loading?

dj, if you start making logical statements, your going to lose all credibility here. ;)

Don't worry, he's been doing it all day. :)

This is a great example of a poor Intamin design just to get the hype. The coaster is 300 plus ft., the rest of the layout is basically a mega-lite. They could have installed a mega-lite that would have been much more rerideable and enjoyable to the public. Who wants to ride a coaster that causes blackouts?

Instead they build something with the Son of Beast philosophy, huge with a mediocre layout. With Intamin's history of ride failure, the extreme forces on this coaster will take its toll on equipment. It is just stupid having a low, high speed turn after a 300 ft drop.

(back to Mantis:TCFKAB)

dj: ...Which is why I added that qualifier about "if the real reason is timing". If the ride were running three trains, it might make more sense, because the real limiting factor on load times is not the time it takes for the train to complete "A" or "B", but actually "C" and "D". The time on the lift limits how soon you *can* dispatch the next train; time in the gravity portion of the ride limits how soon you *must* dispatch the next train. With three trains, tweaking the block timing makes some sense. With two...eh, not so much.

That ride has a trim on the first drop that makes "B" take longer, but it also has a mid-course block brake, a "C" block with a really nasty stop if you set up there, and a "D" block uptrack of the station. Between the trim and the end of the ride there are three block brakes. With only two trains running, trimming hard on the brake at the end of "B" (mid course block) would be an extremely effective way of getting as much extra time as they ever would need

Needless to say, I am not entirely convinced that "timing" is the primary reason for the drop trim on Mantis:TCFKAB. I have heard from an unreliable source that there were structural issues in the first year, but I have not verified that in any reputable way.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

super7* said:
Who wants to ride a coaster that causes blackouts?

I do! I do!

Besides, any serious coaster enthusiast already knows that to keep the blood from draininig out of your head all you need to do is squeeze your butt and leg muscles real tight.....keeps the blood from draining out of the upper body :) Good times!

People don't seem to have trouble with the Giovanloas which, from what I understand (having ridden both but not I305) are more intense for longer.

I think you misunderstood me, Jeff. I wasn't implying that speeding up the lift hill would make the train run faster through the course, I was implying that changing the lift hill speed would make the ride interval faster, or slower, defeating the purpose of adding a trim for timing issues.

If mantis' lift was slowed down, then the interval would be longer, because it took longer to get to the top of the lift.

So my thought on that subject was, why was the trim added to the first drop of Mantis? If it was to slow down the amount of time that the train takes from one load/unload to the next, then wouldn't a better solution to do that be to simply slow down the lift?

There's probably something there that I am missing, because I am not a roller coaster designer.

---

I, like many enthusiasts, dislike trims. I like the drop down a hill to be as fast as it can be. Artificially slowing down the ride vehicle, at a portion of a ride where speed is the important sensation, is a bummer. I'm sure that many people feel this way, and that it's probably too much to ask of them to try to understand that the ride needs the trim for whatever reason.

It kind of reminds me of the new partial freefall attraction at the tower in Vegas. You jump off of the tower, and slowly float to the ground. it would have been much more exciting if you fell at a higher rate of speed, if only for a few seconds, before reaching the ground.

edit - spelling

Yeah, I did think you meant that. Sorry. :)

Apollo Andy...I actually have greyed out on Goliath at SFMM and SFOT. I really wonder what it would be like without the MCBR...

Millennium Force

Height: 310'
Drop: 300'
Inversions: 0
Speed: 93 mph
Duration: 2:20
Max Vertical Angle: 80 Degrees

Intimidator 305

Height: 305'
Drop: 300'
Inversions: 0
Speed: 94 mph
Duration: 3:00
Max Vertical Angle: 85 Degrees

When I look at this and review through comparison I see slight differences, but I keep asking myself the same question. At what speed does Millennium Force climb its lift hill, and at what speed does Intimidator climb its lift hill?

Millenium force and Intimidator I'm betting have almost the same amount of positive G forces at the bottom of both drops, however intimidator stays under that pressure for several more or a few more seconds.

Help me out here guys if you can, I'm having a hard time understanding the reason for the trim on the drop. Maybe it should be there, I don't know, or maybe the lift speed should be slowed.

CoasterDiscern said:

Millenium force and Intimidator I'm betting have almost the same amount of positive G forces at the bottom of both drops, however intimidator stays under that pressure for several more or a few more seconds.

.

I think for starters the fact that the 'bottom' of the drops is different. I-305 goes into a large, flat sweeping turn whereas MF goes back up into an over banked turn where I imagine it loses some force over the same 3-5-7 seconds.

If you slow the lift and assume trims are always on then I sorta agree with the interval theory.
But if you slow the lift and there is an interval standard in the rides logic then the trim wont activate as the logic compensates for the standard. It could be worse, the harder you hit the trim on the drop the more airtime you get through the loop and less the break blocks impact your second half of the ride. So why have a trim when you have blocks/ride ops that can control interval?
I think it's on Mantis for mechanical/maintenance reasons.

CoasterDiscern said:
Millenium force and Intimidator I'm betting have almost the same amount of positive G forces at the bottom of both drops, however intimidator stays under that pressure for several more or a few more seconds.

I would agree with that statement. And that is the reason I-305 is more intense. You can sustain more G's the shorter the duration is. It's the sustained G's where it gets you. Which is why I always have to laugh when they compare coasters to what astronauts feel in the shuttle launches. We're feeling it for a few seconds. They are feeling it for several minutes.

Also with that turn you have a weird loss of blood across your body. Blood goes from your upper body to your kidney/pelvic area on your right side. I think this might have something to do with it, but I'm not a doctor.Traditional coasters have a straight pull out and the blood evenly flows from the top to the bottom of your body. I think it's more comfortable that way, But that turn was so intense and fast (pre-trim) that I didn't notice where the blood went!