I 305 gets trim on the first drop

Well, Stengel designs rides for B&M, Intamin, and others... so who's responsible for which problems? Stengel designed both Raptor and Dragster. (In the case of I-305 though, at least according to the promo web site it appears that Intamin designed the ride themselves.)

If the trim on Manis' firsts drop is to maintain interval, and I'm not saying that it's not, then why didn't they simply slow the lift speed down? Did they figure that slowing the lift was somehow more expensive than adding a trim, or what?

I happened to watch a video of I305 going down the drop with the new trim and it clearly is visible how much the brake affects the momentum of the train. I sincerely hope that Cedar Fair and Intamin can come up with a better solution over the winter, even if it does involve spending some more money and doing a reprofiling of some sort so the ride can run all out as every coaster should.

Is the video online?

mlnem4s said:
I sincerely hope that Cedar Fair and Intamin can come up with a better solution over the winter, even if it does involve spending some more money and doing a reprofiling of some sort so the ride can run all out as every coaster should.

So redesign the ride the way it should have been in order to remove the trims?

Same net effect. Good trims compensate for design, good design negates the need for trims.

Sorry if it seems like I'm picking, but I'm finding humor in the stigma you have with trims. To the point where you're ok if they tame the ride by reprofiling it in some way so long as they don't use trims to achieve the same end result.

That makes no sense to me at all.

In a related question, have they done anything to the trims that were originally on the ride (later in the layout) since they put some of the drop?

Gonch,

From the pics I've seen a lot of the trims on that bunny hop have been removed and possibly were re'moved' to the first drop. It should also be noted that the trim brakes on the first drop are on the left side of the track rather than both sides.

Of course I've never ridden I305 so I have no clue as to the ride experience and how it has changed.

~Rob

Gonch, yes they removed all but one set of fins/trims from the pseudo-bunny hills.

It's the whole grab and let go feeling that I don't like. It detracts from the whole free fall thing that coasters like this are supposed to be good at.

eightdotthree said:
It's the whole grab and let go feeling that I don't like. It detracts from the whole free fall thing that coasters like this are supposed to be good at.

That much I have to concede. Trims like this would indeed change the drop feeling. But everything after that would be the equivalent of - in this case - a lift hill of proper height for the layout.

Word is John Pagel from KD is speaking tonight with another enthusiast web site and will be addressing issues/changes with I305 which hopefully will answer all of the questions and debates everyone is having over the coaster. Anticipate seeing the fabric restraints in place on the trains this weekend as well (allegedly.)

Gonch and whoever else stated about the grab and go feeling, thats definitely the worst part of this trim installation. That, and the fact that the train simply doesnt have the speed necessary to execute those transitions well. I have heard folks complain before the trims that the transitions were too harsh, I personally didnt have a problem, and if that is the only reason for the trims, then the new seatbelt restraint retrofit would have solved that problem. As for the intensity around the first turn, I still bring up the point that there are multiple warnings, both written and audio, while you are in queue. If intense experiences like that alarm you, go ride one of the other five coasters that are a stones throw away.

Bottom line, the trims have stolen the essence of what I305 was supposed to be.

vacoasterfreak said:
...the essence of what I305 was supposed to be.

According to whom?

OK, so not a lot of specifics but here is the official current word out of Kings Dominion from John Pagel on changes to I305:

"The park's official position currently is to improve the ride to increase guest comfort in order to expand ridership (including re-rideability.)"

Other tid-bits about I305:

Merch for I305 is selling extremely well. New I305 ads (live footage) begin this week in various markets. Sandor clocked I305's top speed prior to opening at 94mph (it has never done 100mph as some rumors have stated.)

Also, the park continues to make improvements laying down more pavers the next several weeks in order to reduce heat levels in the summer. Ongoing painting to improve the parks appearance. Planet Snoopy and the Peanuts have been very well received with few complaints about Nickelodeon characters being removed. Fireworks are now being launched from behind Tidal Wave Bay.

Unofficially (not from John Pagel), I305 has been going through a lot of wheels due to it being the highest sustained speed coaster built to date. The wheels simply do not have time to cool down. With them going from 3 day operations to 7 day/weekly operation this was going to cause not only maintenance issues but also burn through the coaster's budget for the season. We can expect to see continued adjustments as issues like this present themselves.

mfivsdarienlake said:
According to the stats from the park / ride manufacturer... i'm assuming there was a top speed listed, and i'm assuming it no longer reaches said speed...

Heh. Indeed.

Given that line of thought and the info posted from mlnem4s, I guess (for the naysayers) there are things that aren't known for sure until the actual ride is built and operating.

In this case it sounds like the real problem is promising something that can't reliably be delivered.

Still more an indicator of ineptness on someone's part in determining what was possible more than a neutering of something that could be.

Splitting hairs at this point, I suppose, but still seems laughable that anyone really feels gypped or thinks this coaster could've operated like that for keeps.

@Gonchar, if improvements can be made to some of the neck/head issues with the restraint in the fast transitions and a solution to the wheel issue can be found then I believe we will see the the first drop trim shortened (though not entirely removed) and the mid-course trim to remain in its shortened form. My experience tells me a lot more will come to light once the temps rise in Virginia and the coaster begins running everyday before any final conclusion(s) can be made.

Ironically, we are right back to what Six Flags dealt with when Shockwave in Gurnee opened in 1988. So much for advances in technology.

LostKause said:
If the trim on Manis' firsts drop is to maintain interval, and I'm not saying that it's not, then why didn't they simply slow the lift speed down? Did they figure that slowing the lift was somehow more expensive than adding a trim, or what?

Haven't we gone over this several times now? The speed of the lift has no significant impact on the speed at the bottom of the first drop. Ever.

Enthusiasts complaining about trims is probably one of the oldest and somewhat annoying things since I got into this. I think it was designer John Wardley who once mentioned in an interview that trimming speed off of a ride is often a design constraint. For rides with a mid-course block, for example, the second half of the ride has to be able to carry the train from a dead stop from that point. A train running untrimmed from that point would take that second half faster, perhaps in a negative way (either on riders or the equipment), than the design accommodates. That's why they trim.

As for 305, you've got a 300-foot ride with almost no hills and frankly not a lot of track. You've got to do something with that speed. Some of it is/was taken out on the last big hill, the rest was on the final brakes. I still don't think the initial bank took that much out of the ride. My ass still floated over that hill. I will concede that a better solution would have been one long final brake run instead.

I guess my point is that the presence of a brake doesn't always mean the ride suddenly sucks.

Jeff said:
I think it was designer John Wardley who once mentioned in an interview that trimming speed off of a ride is often a design constraint.

That's a better way of saying what I've been tryiong to say for a couple of pages now.

mlnem4s said:
@Gonchar, if improvements can be made to some of the neck/head issues with the restraint in the fast transitions and a solution to the wheel issue can be found then I believe we will see the the first drop trim shortened (though not entirely removed) and the mid-course trim to remain in its shortened form.

I don't doubt it.

But it's never going to operate without trims somewhere and no one is getting robbed in any way because of it.

Jeff said:
I guess my point is that the presence of a brake doesn't always mean the ride suddenly sucks.

No, it doesn't (necessarily), but my complaint is primarily about how I think the first drop will be affected. I suppose I should wait until I ride it before complaining, but the thought of trimming speed off the first drop doesn't really appeal to me when I've experienced it otherwise.

It may not (hell, probably won't) be a big deal. Besides, after opening day I expected that we'd see a trim or some other modification before long.

Bottom line, it's just kind of a bummer to think that the coaster will not ride as it did before this past weekend, because the thing really kicked ass.

Jeff said:

I think it was designer John Wardley who once mentioned in an interview that trimming speed off of a ride is often a design constraint. For rides with a mid-course block, for example, the second half of the ride has to be able to carry the train from a dead stop from that point. A train running untrimmed from that point would take that second half faster, perhaps in a negative way (either on riders or the equipment), than the design accommodates. That's why they trim.

Raging Bull's trim brakes on the camel-back. Aside from the apex of said hill, there are only two elements between that trim and the mid-course. As there are mid-course brakes (and more often than not, they hit hard), the only reason I can think of why those trim are there are maintenance related. The turnaround into the mid-course is forceful, but this very park also features Batman and Iron Wolf. I think this ride would operate just fine without the trims.

@Mantis trims- For what it's worth, Chang was essentially a mirrored Mantis until after the mid-course. It's even listed as being a tad bit taller. I don't know if a few feet were added here and there between elements to compensate for the added height, but there weren't any trims.

I am happy that I got a few laps before the trim was added. We'll be going back again in the fall, and it'll be interesting to feel the difference. On a ride of its design the trims will have a negative effect on the ride experience, and I agree with everyone that said that. I'll keep an open mind until I reride it.