Horse Creek Productions?
Homey G. said:
Jes, my suggestion to you since you still feel "wronged" is email them. Have you tried this approach to venting your displeasure or would you just rather lambast them on a public forum?
See, I think Jes has contributed the absolute most to this thread - he actually bought a whole set of the DVDs.
The original post in this thread asked:
"My question is does anyone know if they are a quality video?"
Jes has answered that quite thoroughly adding more info as he watches them. If anyone was curious about what to expect when buying from Horse Creek (or trying to follow "Let the Buyer Beware" as you put it in a previous thread) then Jes has offered more info on his experience with the product than anyone else I've seen.
Most notably (quoted from the above-linked article):
"According to the FCC, there's nothing wrong with a radio station's accepting money in exchange for playing a song. The payment only becomes payola -- and illegal -- if the station fails to inform listeners about the cash changing hands."
Yes, I do know what I'm talking about. I study this kind of thing every single day.
-Nate *** Edited 4/22/2004 2:47:17 PM UTC by coasterdude318***
Those are called advertisements. Tell me, when was the last time you heard a station say, "Here's the latest from Nickelback, and we're playing it because Roadrunner Records is paying us to."
The Salon article is sensational crap about some things that I'm sure happen, but are not the rule. I know promoters, I went to school with them. They're loaded with CD's, tickets and swag, but money isn't changing hands, at least not frequently, and especially now that radio is mostly a couple of public companies.
Furthermore, you haven't responded to the fact that radio stations pay ASCAP/BMI fees, presumably because you know I'm right.
I don't care what you study... I've been there.
Jeff - Editor - CoasterBuzz.com - My Blog
Jeff said:
The Salon article is sensational crap about some things that I'm sure happen, but are not the rule.
Untrue. I suppose ABC news and MTV news about the same matter is crap as well? There's a difference in the "promoters you're talking about and the people who work as middlemen. It happens all the time whether you believe it does or not. Money is changing hands even *more* often now that radio has been deregulated, not less.
Furthermore, you haven't responded to the fact that radio stations pay ASCAP/BMI fees, presumably because you know I'm right.
ASCAP and BMI only cover their members and only do so if required. That is, anyone can easily grant a radio station or anything else permission to play music without licensing fees.
And even if a station were to pay for licensing fees, the record companies still play *far* more for the song to be played in the first place. So technically the station pays for licensing, but actually gains money, not loses it. I don't care whether you were there or not, because you obviously didn't experience what actually is going on today.
-Nate
*** Edited 4/22/2004 5:34:49 PM UTC by coasterdude318***
Zero-G said:
It really doesn't matter- they are selling an illegal product.
I understand you're all tore up because you feel you got an inferior product. Honestly, I really think that sucks; but the fact of the matter is, you're accusing them of something pretty serious here. I just think if you're that upset, contact them, but don't speak on that which you know very little, and we can all go back to being happy little coaster brothers and sisters... cept for Jeff and Nate. That doesn't concern me.
Other than that, I have zero problem with you at all. God bless.
But they don't.
I was a record promoter for Giant/Revolution Records for five years [1989-1994]. Play for pay absolutely happened...I saw it with my own eyes.
I had stations play songs only after my label agreed to buy 1,500 t-shirts with the station logo on it. I had stations tell me they'd play my song if the label paid for "x#" tickets to a concert of sporting event. I even had a station ask me to have the label pay a month of their phone bills!
I could get music played simply by taking station employees to a stip club, theme park, casino, concert, and sporting event.
The label would use popular artists as leverage to get new or unpopular artists played. Want Kenny Wayne Shepperd or Big Head Todd to do an on-air interview or acoustic set? Want 100 tickets to their show? No problem...if you play this Letters to Cleo or Wakeland song.
I can't tell you how many times I arranged a contest to fly a listener to Los Angeles to see "band X" and, lo and behold, a station employee would win! Usually it was the music director, program director, or station manager. What are the odds?
In fact the main reason I left was because of the unscrupulous and ILLEGAL business practices rampant in the industry. I don't doubt in the least that all that still happens today.
*** Edited 4/22/2004 6:46:53 PM UTC by Mamoosh***
Homey G. said: still would like to know if any attempt has been made by Peabody to clear all this up. I know Jeff and he's a good guy, but I think after his input, this thread has taken a turn for the "BUUUURN the Witch!!"
i agree. since rob alvey stopped doing videos i guess people feel the need to hunt down someone else. i have both rob and the hosecreek videos and they were b oth well worht the money.
besides i thought i read somewhere that horsecreek does get the footage from the parks with permission. a lot of the stuff on there videos looks like the promotional video. with the interviews and everything.
how could they even get that stuff without going through the parks?
rob is right when he had all the witch hunting stuff on his site a while back. some of you have made it so these people just want to stop doing this for us. and they are doing it for us. they arent doing it for anyone else. and who else makes videos of this quality? discovery channel or those 3d tapes? no way. horse creek and robs stuff is much better. and even if they are making some money off it who cares? let them. they put the time into it. it seems that the same people to hunt them are the same ones who want tje videos.
i dont get it. stop complaining and just let people be.
some of you have made it so these people just want to stop doing this for us. and they are doing it for us.
How philanthropic of them!
1) Quality and legality of Horse Creek's own productions.
2) Possible illegal reproduction onto DVD and resale of existing park videos.
***IF*** they are taking existing copyrighted VHS videos and creating DVD's out of them and reselling them, then they have some serious stuff to deal with.
The end product does not justify the means.
TTDBoy said:
i dont get it. stop complaining and just let people be.
If people are doing things that will potentially endanger me and/or other people, you bet I have a problem with it. There's no "witch hunt" going on here, just people who have problems with illegal (and potentially dangerous and/or damaging) activity.
-Nate
When I ask them to name the last CD they've bought, though, they have to work pretty hard to come up with one. Mostly, they want something for nothing, and are willing to talk themselves into believing that what they are doing isn't wrong.
This wouldn't be that interesting except that many of them will eventually earn their living by writing software---software that they will discover is downloaded by people who want something for nothing.
For better or worse, it is nearly impossible to use technological or legal means to prevent IP and media theft in the common case, which is why I make a point of harping about this sort of stuff. Some people evangelize wooden coasters and small parks. I evangelize the quaint notion that you should pay for the music you listen to, the movies you watch, and the software packages you use. Someone worked hard to make them, tell you about them, package them, and get them to you, and they deserve to be compensated for their efforts.
(And, in addition to Rhapsody, let me also plug another service I use: movielink---a fine, cheap, easy-to-use legal source of downloadable movies.)
Edit: Rampage: IP theft is potentially damaging to my income. *** Edited 4/22/2004 8:58:16 PM UTC by Brian Noble***
-Nate
TTDBoy said:
even if they are making some money off it who cares? let them...
Well in Peabody's case, I'd care a lot. Part of the product used to make that money was taken from him without permission and assuming he's telling the truth (and why the hell wouldn't he be?) there's no question that such theft occured.
Explain to me what's "right" or "harmless" about taking someone else's work and making money off of it without getting permission, paying for rights, or even giving the slighest acknowledgement as to where the image in question came from. There was no attempt at goodwill whatsoever - that's not borrowing, that's not "fair use", that's not anything but simple theft.
they put the time into it.
What? The time to lift a few pics from the internet. Yeah, that's a commendable act - and one certainly worth being rewarded.
I thinking the people that think Peabody is out of line have never put enough effort into something to give it actual value, because once you have you'll understand why someone would be pissed when it is taken from them.
My theory is that this psychological phenomenon is related to the failure of the DIVX DVD 'rental' system several years ago (and the imminent failure of the self destructing DVDs being tested now).
That is, a mental seperation between the value of OBJECTS and the value of CONTENT.
I buy a CD, I have paid for the OBJECT. I can do whatever I want with it, it's mine. The content is almost secondary. I also want it to be mine forever. I'll be glad to rent an object and return it, but don't give me an object that is designed to stop working after 2 days. Another exhibit in this argument is the fact that most people believe that making a copy of a CD or making a mix tape and distributing it to their friends is completely legal... "I bought the object, therefore I can do whatever i want with the content"
If I download a file, there's no OBJECT, only CONTENT. I don't pay for CONTENT, I pay for OBJECTS... which I then can use as drink coasters if I want to.
This is the same reason subscription based Web content is a tough sell. There's no OBJECT. Honestly, how many of us would even join Coasterbuzz if not for the opportunity it gives us to attend events (or, perhaps, to make a track record, which is ALMOST an object ;)
I do believe this attitude will change in a few generations. What is needed is for people to realize that the same moral code applies to objects as it does to content, and to teach their children it is wrong the same way they teach them taking things fromt he shelf of a store is wrong. *** Edited 4/22/2004 9:16:41 PM UTC by ThemeDesigner***
Like Homey G. suggested, I would ask them your questions directly rather than falsely accusing them of things. In fact, that's just what I did. And I found out that everything they're doing is 100% legal. But I guess that's what happens when you stop assuming things (it's that word again) and actually go right to the source for your answers.
*No onride footage taken illegally
*No copyrighted music used without permission
*No "homemade" DVD's (this one people seem most pissed about...and it didn't happen).
Joe "you know what assuming things does, right?" C.
Closed topic.
