Great Vertigo 'train' - would it be possible on B&M's?

Carrie M. said:
I also think there's a certain psychological element, too. I've heard people in general discuss their perceived safety with OSTR versus not. I think if a park wants as much ridership as possible, then it might be in their best interest to use them even if it can be proven to be unnecessary.

^The psychological element was supposedly the reasoning behind the after-market install of the redundant seatbelts on the Deja Vu rides...

P.S. edited to include Carrie's statement that elicited my response -page break.

I've witnessed many, many times people's head move forward and towards their chest

Well in that case, I guess I'm talking about something different. I'm thinking more along the lines of torsos going forward. Even with an OTSR, your head is going to move forward towards your chest (and on some coasters side to side into the restraints).

Mamoosh said:
Ridden all three, can honestly say they were butter-smooth with no headbanging on my rides.

Either your body type is completely different then mine, or you know some secret on how to ride a B&M that I don't. I always get a little head-banging on any B&M. Not enough to stop me from riding, but enough that one ride is enough.

But even if you don't mind the OTSR, I have trouble finding a good reason why removing them isn't better. I'm not sure I buy the idea that signficantly less people would ride because it 'looks' less safe. And the idea that the ride wouldn't look right without the OTSR is just because thats the norm and what we expect to see.

First, we're not talking about just any B&M coaster. The discussion is about their inverted coasters.

Second, I never said I was against removing the OSTRs. I don't think I even commented on if removing them would make the rides better. I simply said I have no problem with their current design. If B&M were to come up with a new inverted train design without OSTRs, fine. I'd still ride 'em.

Third, I have experienced headbanging on B&M coasters...just not on any of their inverted designs (nor on any of their drop coaster designs). I have experienced it on their stand-up and speed (hyper) coasters. Anyway I can't comment on how our ride styles are different. I simply face forward and hold onto the OSTR. I do not ride with my hands up. I rarely look to the side.

Do the converted premiers suffer in ridership because of perceived unsafe conditions?

I think for me the question isn't "what's wrong with the current design."

For me, and I suspect others here, it's a matter of that the OTSR's exist at all, because all other things being equal, a ride without them is going to be far superior to a ride with them. I don't find anything "wrong" with the current design, per se, and I enjoy all B&M inverteds, but few are able to reach the fun I'll have on a coaster with a lap bar of some sort. Still, I think there are a lot of practical reasons they exist, but I don't think wishing they'd go away/change is the same as "complaining" at all.

matt. said:
For me, and I suspect others here, it's a matter of that the OTSR's exist at all, because all other things being equal, a ride without them is going to be far superior to a ride with them. I don't find anything "wrong" with the current design...but few are able to reach the fun I'll have on a coaster with a lap bar of some sort.

That's just something I don't relate to at all.

Hell, probably 3 of my 10 favorite rides are B&M inverted coasters...complete with OTSRs.

SFoGswim said:

Tekwardo said:

I've never seen anyones head go forward anywhere in an inversion on an Anton or a Premier with just lap bars.

That's all I see on SFoG's Mind Bender--especially on the first loop. The first drop has almost not slope to it and the bottom of it levels out very slowly to the point where the forces almost stop. If you get a false sense of calm and lean forward going into the loop, you have almost no chance of returning upright before exiting the loop.

So if OTSR's aren't there to keep people secured upside-down nor are they there to keep people back against the headrest... why do they even exist?

If you look at MM Revolution - it's a flat ramp into the loop (so you get excited to see it coming closer and closer). Then with the next batch of Anton's coasters, you have a very large (but not flat) pull-out. This way the change from low g's to high g's is not as great an increase as it is on Revolution. Also, the loops after Revolution were a slightly different shape, making the G's a little more uniform - and less at the base of the loop. (Where people, especially kids, had their heads thrown forward or 'rolled up in a ball' as it were...)

^^That's what I'm trying to get across, thanks matt :)

I love coasters, but think the B&M rides (or ANY ride with OTSRs) would be more comfortable and fun with NO OTSRs :)

CoasterDemon said:
I love coasters, but think the B&M rides (or ANY ride with OTSRs) would be more comfortable and fun with NO OTSRs :)

They'd be more enjoyable with fluffy pillows and a mint too.

Nahhh.. mints give me a headache - just like OTSRs :)

But you don't have to eat the mint.

And the pillow would protect your head from the evil OTSR.

It's a win.

Hmmm... Years ago I really thought about bringing a pillow in the park to ride Orient Express with me. I was 15 and had good ideas I guess.

But I still wouldn't be able to lean over and give my date a smooch! Or talk to my riding partners while looking at them. Or put my hands up. Or look to my left, or right :(

matt. said:

For me, and I suspect others here, it's a matter of that the OTSR's exist at all, because all other things being equal, a ride without them is going to be far superior to a ride with them. I don't find anything "wrong" with the current design, per se, and I enjoy all B&M inverteds, but few are able to reach the fun I'll have on a coaster with a lap bar of some sort. Still, I think there are a lot of practical reasons they exist, but I don't think wishing they'd go away/change is the same as "complaining" at all.

If no one ever asked "wouldn't it be better if we lived somewhere other than a cave"....then everything would smell damp and musty. Are caves relatively safe when there are predators about? Absolutely. But striving for better is what separates us from the lower life forms... :)

rollergator said:
But striving for better is what separates us from the lower life forms... :)

Depends on what you're trying to make better, doesn't it?

In terms of safety, sense of security and reliability - the OTSR with seat belt is probably as good as it gets.

rollergator said: ...striving for better is what separates us from the lower life forms... :)

That, and our ability to accessorize :)

(10 points for the first person to guess that movie quote)

Steel Magnolias! ;)

edit to respond to Gonch - true enough, but if we can guarantee safety, sense of security, etc., AND get a better ride experience.....why wouldn't we? Intamin managed to take an absolutely amazing steel-coaster train and make it "safe", maybe B&M can take an absolutely safe train and make it into a better RIDE... :~P

Are caves relatively safe when there are predators about?

Yes...unless it's the one at Darien Lake..THAT will harm you no matter WHERE you are....

rollergator said:
Steel Magnolias! ;)

Correct. But then you had to go and say...

edit to respond to Gonch - true enough, but if we can guarantee safety, sense of security, etc., AND get a better ride experience.....why wouldn't we? Intamin managed to take an absolutely amazing steel-coaster train and make it "safe", maybe B&M can take an absolutely safe train and make it into a better RIDE... :~P

Gator - click here, then here to receive your points.

rollergator said:
edit to respond to Gonch - true enough, but if we can guarantee safety, sense of security, etc., AND get a better ride experience.....why wouldn't we? Intamin managed to take an absolutely amazing steel-coaster train and make it "safe", maybe B&M can take an absolutely safe train and make it into a better RIDE... :~P

Sure.

But I don't believe the ride would be any more than marginally better at the very most. Seems like pursuit of something that just doesn't matter. Effort that could be better used almost anywhere else in the R&D pipeline.

--

On a side note, honest question:

Has anyone ever fallen or been ejected or whatever from a ride with OTSRs and the redundant holding belt thingy?

Ejected? No, but a rider did fall from the TOGO stand-up at King's Island. But that was rider misconduct. So why am I mentioning it? :(