Gay Marriage at Cedar Point: Please help us!

Andy, I had written a measured reply to your last post but the "Even if" remark made me realise that some days are just a waste of keystrokes.

N0. I'm not saying that at all. This is an opinion, and I'm not being a jerk. I vote up a lot of posts that I agree with

http://www.sanduskyregister.com/article/cedar-point/4448216
Eric Morrison said:
“It doesn’t matter if it’s legal or not,” Morrison said. “You should be able to have a commitment ceremony. For God’s sakes, you’re getting married by a zombie.”

This about sums it up for me. IMO Cedar Point is just using the law as an excuse to not fire up their midwestern, Christian customers who you know would be throwing "tantrums" if they performed a commitment ceremony.

So if I am to put my faith in Andy and Tyler, I am to believe that because I am homosexual, I can not get into Heaven? That is what it comes down to, and that is the biggest problem that I have with organized religion. They tell me that because of who I am, I surely can't be a Christian like they are.

Is it that exclusive of a club that I am not invited? God doesn't create someone with intent to destroy them. That wouldn't make sense.

There will be very little gays in Heaven, but not because God doesn't want them there. How many Christians will be proud that they actually kept people out by the things that they taught and focused on? A land without those freaksh gay people? A dream come true?

Here is a good answer to Tyler's Bible lesson. I just realized that the word "homosexual" isn't in that verse in older translations. The word Homosexual wasn't even a word back then. I read the King James Version regularly. Translations are not from God, they are from people. It seems to me that these people do not want to see any nasty gays in their Heaven.

And yet again my faith is tested, and yet again I do not budge.

According to Andy's terminology, you're only "naturally predisposed" to be gay. Which sounds like something that can be resisted or changed.

Did I get that right, Andy?

If you had to for some reason, could you change your sexuality from straight to gay?

Or is the driving concept at play that it's only a sin if you have homosexual sex....i.e., "being gay" is OK but having gay sex isn't? Is that because you couldn't get married as a homosexual (perhaps it's the monogamous commitment aspect that some consider the determining factor)? Perhaps the moral law at work is being respected by gay marriage, and that heteros who have premaritals or extramaritals are "the real sinners"? It all gets pretty confusing, so it might be best to let God be the judge...

I don't recall ever "deciding" to be a straight guy....but we can definitely decide not to be judgmental (because judging others, I'm pretty sure, is a sin - to me at least). Pretty sure it says somewhere that "sin is sin, none are greater or lesser." And I am in no position to throw any stones...

Funny....homosexuality couldn't get this thread locked, but maybe religion can...

I am pleasantly surprised that the discussion has been allowed to get this far. Kudos to the Admins.

I just realized that I have received no vote ups for any of my recent posts in this topic. I can accept that without embarrassment or any negative feelings. It's not to do with the Vote up's and more to do with people finding my posts helpful or agreeable. I think I will kindly back out of this topic now. I'll keep reading though, so please continue without me.

Peace.

Let me clarify: I completely believe that God loves gays. I am pro-gay marriage, pro-gay ordination, pro-gay sex in a committed relationship, and I absolutely believe that gays will be in heaven with the rest of us sinners. I do not think homosexuality is a choice, nor do I think it is against God's will for creation. In fact, there are a number of gays who, if God doesn't want them in heaven, I don't want to be in that heaven. They have given their lives to serving God and his people and have devoted themselves to loving him, and I don't want any part of a God who rejects those people. I also don't want to be in heaven where God rejects people who don't believe a certain way, go to a certain church, or live a certain lifestyle. My immediate family is not Christian and does a lot of things that are not in line with "conservative values." I did a lot of those things until I converted in college. If I had died before I converted would God have rejected me, just because I accidentally got hit by a car a few years too early? I don't want any part of that God either.

I think people who legislate against the rights of gays in the name of God are mistaken at best and possibly something worse (though I do support their right to vote and act on their beliefs). I think it's ridiculous that many of them seem to make this issue more important than justice for the poor or oppressed. I do not see my position in conflict in any way with my super strong belief in the Christian God or scriptures or Christian fellowship (what some would call, church). I don't want any part of a God who cares more about who sleeps with whom than the fact that malaria vaccines cost pennies but millions die in Africa from malaria.

The God I believe in loves everybody infinitely, unconditionally, and perfectly, without exception or limit and God's love overcomes all our choices, all our brokenness, and all the pain done to us at the hands of bigots, oppressors and ignorant people. If God were judging people based on their choices, I know I wouldn't have a leg to stand on, so I'm glad that the God I believe in judges me with mercy and grace and I believe he will judge us all with mercy and grace.

All that said, I still find the argument "It's natural so it must be right" completely unconvincing. I don't think the question of whether it's natural or whether it's a choice is at all relevant to whether it's okay with God. There are a lot of natural things that are not okay with God (death) and a lot of unnatural things (like vaccines) that are most definitely okay with God. And just to reiterate, I happen to believe homosexuality is natural and okay with God but one doesn't follow from the other.

What part of "It's natural so it can't be wrong" do you find unconvincing? Is it the naturally subconscious attraction? Is it the meeting of like-minds? Is it the shopping for furniture at Ikea and making double-entendres about the meatballs and lingonberry jam?

Or is it about the sex? Because you guys always seem to overlook the natural, loving stuff in the rush to point the finger at the dreaded lurgy.

There are people, gay, straight, and all points inbetween who go out there and who would shag a pool table (well, it's got legs and a choice of holes). Personally, I would rather save for the pool table of my choice. However, I never twitch my curtains in case the Christian family up the road get a new table, vary the one that they have or totally trash it for something entirely different.

I never find myself fretting over what my straight neighbours are doing and it puzzles me as to why my neighbours would puzzle over my life to that extent...

Edit was to distinguish that faith/monogamy/promiscuity et al are all open to abuse/adherence regardless of creed, colour etc etc and on and on and so forth...

Andy, I like your God--or at least I would if I knew He/She/It were real. But that benign supreme being sure doesn't sound like the one in the Testaments, Old or New.

Thanks for clarifying your views, and for doing such a good job of it. :)

invy said:

What part of "It's natural so it can't be wrong" do you find unconvincing?

Because there are a lot of things that are natural and clearly wrong. I routinely have the desire to punch people in the face, but I don't because it's wrong. I'm pretty sure I was born with that desire and it's not a choice, and I don't condemn myself for having that urge, but if I were to act on it, I think we could all agree it would be wrong.

Again, I think homosexuality is okay with God and natural, but one doesn't follow from the other.

Edit:

invy said:

Because you guys always seem to overlook the natural, loving stuff in the rush to point the finger at the dreaded lurgy.

I'm not sure what this is about or what it had to do with my position. And I'm really not sure who "you guys" are.

Ensign Smith said:

But that benign supreme being sure doesn't sound like the one in the Testaments, Old or New.

If I see everything through the lens of Christ, I can see elements of grace in everything the scriptures say. There are still a lot of confusing parts, contradictory parts, and down right hard to swallow parts, but as far as I can tell, everything Christ did, said, and stood for was about mercy and grace.

That's a fairly scary tendency Andy, I hope you never see fit to act upon it.

Personally, I get slightly annoyed with people at times - like when able-bodied people plonk themselves and their shopping down on the bus seats that were intended for those less-able Sometimes I do speak up in the hope of being reasonable insofar as we can all bunch up, bend buggies (aka those things with wheels that incorporete an infant) and let the wheelbound find a space.

As for my impulses, I adore giving my friends unashamed and unbridled hugs *points to Gator, Matt et al* -solely for that fact that I adore them for nothing other than their being adorable and not a stiffy in sight :)

You don't ever have desires that you consider natural but acting upon them would be wrong?

No.

Count me as someone who cant believe it came to this. Why in the world anyone (straight or gay) would want to turn an event centered upon devoting your entire life to another person into a political statement (or one where you dress up like a corpse reanimated) is beyond my understanding. If/when I find someone I am willing to devote my life to, I dont want that event to symbolize anything other then what it actually is. That is just my view point.

As for the religious angle, as a devout Catholic the way I see it is a state marriage license is not the equivalent to the sacrament of marriage. One is granted by the state, the other by the church. If the state wants to allow two people to file joint tax returns, become the legal next of kin, etc Im certainly not going to stand in the way of a state doing that. I see no reason why those rights can not be extended to gay people and frankly I think it makes a lot of sense. However, Ill start complaining when the state mandates that churches bend to their will (such as the current dust up over birth control.)

Andy, I just wanted to say how much I liked your post instead of just "liking" it.

We've had our disagreements in this thread from time to time, but I certainly respect you.

I hope that was never lost in translation.

Tyler, on the other hand...the only reason I give you a "get out of jail free" card is because you're young, and your brain is, quite literally, still developing.

You only have about 5-7 years of credit left, though.

In no way would I make an attempt to change someone's philosophy on life. With that said Tyler, if you are as young as I think you are, enjoy life and keep an open mind. College (aka real world 101) will expose you to a lot of new ideas that may seem contrary to your beliefs now. There are a lot of happy and content people out there in this world. Not that it should matter to your personal beliefs, but keep in mind that 2/3rds of the world doesn't identify themselves as Christian.