Gay Marriage at Cedar Point: Please help us!

djDaemon said:
In other words, morality existed prior to religion, and only since the aforementioned co-opting have the two been conflated.

Chronologically, at least as far as I can tell, as long as there have been people, there has been religion. Philosophically, is religion something humans later layered on top of objective morality? I don't see any reason to believe that any more than morality being something humans later layered on top of objective spirituality.

Lord Gonchar said: Not Carrie. She hates babies.

Don't blame me. I'm friends with the devil.

"A friend of the devil is a friend of mine...."

I know some of you are old enough to get that....

Old school:

We are satan's cronies, the devil is our friend.

ETA - not as old as Gator ;)

From one Deadhead to another.

But isn't that at least partially because religion co-opted preexisting moral behavior, to the extent of subsequently claiming that moral behavior as religion-based? In other words, morality existed prior to religion, and only since the aforementioned co-opting have the two been conflated.

From the perspective of a non-religious, agnostic, or athiest, morals and everything else came before religion.

But you're not arguing with someone like that, you're arguing with Andy, a Presbyterian. And as most Christians believe, Adam and Eve were created with Morals and they worshiped Almighty God.

ApolloAndy said:
For the vast, vast majority of the people in the world throughout history, religion is the most important lens through which the world is interpreted.

That lens has also been proven completely wrong time and time again as science has advanced (astronomy being the most obvious example). Given that, I'm not comfortable allowing religion to establish moral code that cannot be otherwise justified.

Proven wrong? Maybe some specific interpretations of some specific religious figures have been proven wrong, but I can't imagine a more arrogant position.

Edit: Don't forget that Newton, Galileo, Copernicus, Einstein, as well as many prominent, contemporary scientists are all religious to some extent.

And as a science man, I've yet to see any scientific absolute proof that religion is wrong. Just because someone else's religion is ignorant of science doesn't make all religions ignorant of science.

Tekwardo said:

But you're not arguing with someone like that, you're arguing with Andy, a Presbyterian. And as most Christians believe, Adam and Eve were created with Morals and they worshiped Almighty God.

That's not even it for me. I take Adam and Eve to be allegorical. Even within anthropology, I see no evidence that morality predated spirituality.

"Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right."

Yeah, I should have seperated those two sentences as they were really different thoughts.

James, I would rephrase the same sentiment:

Religion is having the humility to know that you don't know it all.

"It" being, what is right, what is best for the world, and most importantly, what is best for yourself.

ApolloAndy said:

Proven wrong? Maybe some specific interpretations of some specific religious figures have been proven wrong, but I can't imagine a more arrogant position.

I think you missed my point (or, more likely, I suck at making my point). You suggested that the religious "lens" was important to some as a tool for interpretation, and thus has some validity in terms of being adequate justification for establishing morality or even legislation. At least that's how I interpreted that comment.

I merely point out that that "lens" is not infallible, and thus conclusions reached through that lens need some objective justification outside religion.

I'm not in any way suggesting that science has wholly proven religion "wrong", just that we now know (among many other things) that there are scientifically demonstrable explanations for things that were previously explained largely through religion (i.e. the Sun is a god).

djDaemon said:

I merely point out that that "lens" is not infallible, and thus conclusions reached through that lens need some objective justification outside religion.

Or that people made (and will continue to make) mistakes, but the process is still the best/only way to access certain truths.

I'm not convinced that rationality, philosophy, or even laboratory science aren't in exactly the same position.

Edit: And just to note - I believe 100% in evolution, big bang, 4 billion year old earth, 13 billion year old (or however) universe, global warming, etc. etc.

Here's the reality.

You know that creepy old racist uncle/grandpa in your family that still honestly thinks black people are inferior? I think most of us have this person in our family.

You know how you can't believe a human being can honestly still think this way in 2013? But there he is, still cracking racist jokes, pointing out all the "colored folk" on TV.

If you're on the "gay marriage is bad because my god said so" side of this issue, you're on your way to being that guy.

To your grandkids, you're going to be that guy. To your relatives, you're going to be that guy. And to society, you're the guy who still cracks racist jokes and thinks women shouldn't vote.

The good news? You can stop being that guy right now. There are hundreds of interpretations of the bible, if that's your thing; pick one that doesn't take you down that road.

It must feel wonderful to practice a religion that preaches the discrimination and marginalization of other human beings because of who they are.

While I think it's true, I'd hate for people to change their view because other people are going to judge them in some hypothetical future. I'd hope people would act in ways they believe are right, not because future people will judge them.

There are lots of beliefs I have today that other people think are outdated, ignorant, disjoint for reality, etc. and I am confident that trend will only continue, but I still maintain them because I believe they are right, regardless of what other people think.

There are plenty of racist folks that are my age. In 2013. And while I don't agree with their beliefs or morals, I support their right to feel that way.

ApolloAndy said:

Religion is having the humility to know that you don't know it all.

If that's the case, then I know a whole bunch of people who aren't nearly as religious as they think they are.