Flying Turns Update

I have some questions about the layout and to make it easier to understand, I marked some elements of the layout with numbers:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c352/matt515o/Miscellaneous/KFT-plan-1.jpg

[1] How high off the ground is the station? Is the track leading into the station a lift as well?

[2] Downward helix right? How is the transfer area going to work if the first switch is at the top of the helix and the second switch is at the bottom of the helix?

[3] & [4] Is this just track or trough? Is it all braking track? Will the trains be virtually stopped before they get to section [4] or are these last two turns going to be interesting? Is this all along the ground? Any lifts or conveyors?

One other question regarding the "figure-12" element...how many layers are there? I haven't been able to decifer how many times it will loop around this thing before exiting to the last couple of turns before all the straight track. Thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this.

Ok, I'm going to answer this with info that I have and with most of it from Coastin' Steve.

1) The loading station will be around 15 feet off grade and and yes there is a 3rd lift up into the station.

2) This is a direct quote from Coastin' Steve: "Not sure what you mean about "transfer area" or first and second switch.
Does it help if you realize that the first lift hill is right after the drop out of the loading barn. I've heard that this 1st lift will be 18ft tall and this will give the train the energy to do the helix and make it to the bottom of lift #2."

3 & 4) Right below and slightly to the left of the #3 in your drawing you can actually see on the drawing where the main trough ends. At this point the trough is about 15 ft off of the ground.
Out of the trough at this point it will do a "downhill" brake run on side friction type "open" track. No, these brakes will not do anything near stopping the train,it still has a bit of trough and track to do.
The 90 degree turn it comes to will be a troughed turn about 8 ft off the ground and then it will be back out in the open on side friction track under #4, til it gets to the turn to head back to the loading station, which will be another troughed turn, basically on grade. Then a short lift hill back up into the loading station.

Again, this last bit was a direct quote from Coastin' Steve with a few punctual changes by me! :)

Tom

I think what Acoustic means by transfer area and switch is the transition from track to trough and back again-- at least that's how I interpreted his question.

So will the ride be all "track" from the station to the top of the second lift? Or will the helix be troughed as well, with transitions at either end? From what I understand, this inter-lift helix is a new feature and wasn't part of the original Riverview FT-- or am I the one "off track" here?

Thanks for the info. That helps a lot.

Still puzzled about the helix area though. If oyu look at the drawing, there appears to be transfer tracks just before the helix and just after. Also, the trough is much wider around the outside of the helix (facing out to the park). I thought the storage track was going to wrap around it there. I seem to recall John Fetterman saying something about that.

Regardless of the last mystery, I understand the layout much better now. All that straight track was really puzzling. Sounds like that part will be more interesting than it looks--a drawn out, gradual slow. Can't wait!

If memory serves me correctly there is an 18 foot lift after the station leading to a drop into a 540 degree troughed and enclosed (woo hoo, a tunnel!) helix that sends you to the base of the second lift. You also are "on-track" not off it . The helix was added along with the first lift to create a "block" effect, since they will have 3 trains and there really would be no such animal as a "block brake" that you normally would find just about any coaster built today. The three lifts function as "blocks."

Tom

AV, I forgot about this part of your question post:

---

Acoustic Viscosity said:

One other question regarding the "figure-12" element...how many layers are there? I haven't been able to decifer how many times it will loop around this thing before exiting to the last couple of turns before all the straight track. Thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this.

---

2 layers. Here are the 10 turns the ride will do in the main figure 12 section:
(approx degrees , L or R turn)
200 L , 90 R, 270 L, 90 R, 270 L, 90 R,
90 L, 90 R, 60 L, 180 R

Again, courtesy of Coastin' Steve.

Tom

About the downward mid-lift helix, John said in a previous post (in this thread) that it was originally going to be sort of a "red herring" to the actual ride. It was going to be tracked, to throw off people about what the ride really was before they got to the top and went trackless. A problem came up with how the bobsled cars tracked the helix, and apparently it would be too rough. The Helix from what I understand, will be trough.

**Edit, its on page 12:
" As for the helix/tunnel - we have morphed the track within from a true side-friction track, to more of the troughed style which appears, naturally, in spades later in the ride. The bobsled style of car, with its six casters and six guide wheels, does not track gracefully through a fully-guided tight turn such as we initially proposed. (I'm puzzled how effective the original Bartlett turn could have been, slow speed or not, in the Riverview and Coney Island versions of this type of ride).

What this means is that the helix/tunnel will not be so much of a "red herring", as I suggested earlier, and more of an "enclosed appetizer" for the fuller course meal to be served after the longer lift."

And heres a post I made way back on page 7:
"http://rcdb.com/pictures/picmax/knoebels/flying-turns9.jpg
That picture gives the best Idea so far. The lift has not been built yet, but the top would be on the right of the american flag (theres no trough in that picture yet) It starts off there making a 180 to the left, then another 180 to the right ( around the top of the middle steel pole), then a 360 downward helix to the left. (visible on the 1st webcam, the top "trough). You can also see the next 180 (to the right) as the trough that seems to be coming out to the left on the first webcam. after that it makes another 360 downward helix to the left as you can see in the picture on RCDB (below the american flag) After that, another 180 degree to the right, and another to the left (as you can see the bottom trough on the 1st webcam) then another 90 degree right (very first area they built) then it heads towards the break run. basically it's just a series of alternating 180 turns and 360 downward helixes." *** Edited 1/26/2007 11:05:11 PM UTC by P18***

AV, the helix will have two tiers. Except the middle loop (with the two 90 turns) will be singles, offset at elevations between the two end loops. Way back in this thread I had a link to an aerial view of the Riverview ride-- that would give you a good way to follow the helix around and down. It is a mirror image though of the Knoebels plan.

http://knoebels.com/images/turns-images/TopCurve.jpg
I haven't seen those new January pictures up before (http://knoebels.com/whats-new.asp )
That first curve looks pretty wicked. Much steeper then I had thought it would be. Also, footers for the helix! *** Edited 1/27/2007 12:29:02 AM UTC by P18***

I think they must have just put those up, I haven't seen them before either. I have a picture that I took that shows the steepness of the curve:

http://tmcgill1.photosite.com/KnoeblsGroveDecember31st2006/Knoebels_Grove_December_31st__2006_018.html

I think someone took the one on the Knoebels site while standing at the top of the lift. I couln't go out that far because I didn't have a harness! :)

Tom

Ok, as I talk to myself here, I have found out about the transfer track from Coastin' Steve:

"At the top of the 1st lift hill that will be the entrance to the helix, there will be a switch. Then running just outside of the helix, running down hill will be the storage track that will have it's switched "exit" joining onto the side friction track just before it
gets to lift hill #2.
So while the helix track will go around the 540 degrees, the transfer track will go around 180 degrees just outside of it."

Hope this paints a better picture for all of the curious! :)

Tom

That sounds pretty cool! Almost like an 'alternate track' one could ride in if you had both transfer switches open at the same time.

...and would it could as a separate credit? ;)

Check out the webcam to see the snow in the trough.

That'd be a fun trip, you'd probably just need a good saucer sled and if you could get a good launch it would be a fun trip...until you hit one of the brace supports or the giant heater...then that could be a problem...

Tom

Thanks Tom. THAT is what I ws after. Seems like the storage track may be a little steep to get from the top of the helix to the bottom in just 180 degrees despite being a wider radius.

A few more pictures have been added to my KFT album. While I was there, I talked to a guy who let me snap a few pics. from inside the trough. Very nice of him to let me do that. Anyhow, the ride is lookin pretty sweet and I cant wait to ride it.

http://members13.clubphoto.com/lawrence594753/4232016/guest.phtml

Dalado

Cool pics. I like how even the streaks in the grain of the cypress suggest motion and speed along the trough and around the curves.

nice pictures! I can't wait to ride it... wonder when it will be done? do they have the cars/trains yet? looks like alot of fun now i can't wait til summer to go down there!!!!

From what I know they still do not have the trains. Safety is still a premier issue and these trains have to be designed a LOT differently than the trains that ran on the old Flying Turns rides.

Tom

Wow just checked the webcams...what I'd give for a good sled ride down that right now!