CP - Force Seat Belts & T Bar Restraints

This just in! John Kerry came out and blasted the Bush administration for the whole Intamin seatbelt issue. A White House spokesman said that it was all the Democrat's fault. Just thought that I would pass it along.

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RideMan said:
Losing weight isn't a permanent solution. Because when another Intamin ride somewhere tosses another rider because they didn't fix their seats the first five times, they'll make the belt an inch shorter again. And then maybe YOU won't fit.

I think I know what my next technical article is going to have to be about.........

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

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I agree completely Dave, The size of the rider isn't going to make a difference when the design is at fault. It's been pretty much proven that two of the people had their belts on and did that save em? No.

Also when State investigators determine the restraint inadaquate and the manufacturer says something else it raises red flags IMHO.

http://members.aol.com/rides911/2002.htm#mar19

How can short seatbelts make your knees higher than the bar? The possiblility still exist that a rider could submarine out sideways if he/she becomes unconcious or is unable to maintain a upright possition.

I look at almost every successfull restraint (Never lost a rider) and they all come down to a version of a 4 or five part harness which includes some sort of side support, besides a couple bars that sit several inches off your hips, The Belt itself is the only side support.

The only thing the short belts do is make it easier to spot that the bar is down on the thighs of riders. which guarantee's nothing

If another person is tossed off there wont be anyone riding intamin coasters, because they will all be closed down.

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CP ismyhome said:
This just in! John Kerry came out and blasted the Bush administration for the whole Intamin seatbelt issue. A White House spokesman said that it was all the Democrat's fault. Just thought that I would pass it along.

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In statement earlier today, John Kerry stated "I voted for the precautionary seat belt changes before I voted against them."

Fellow Mass. Senator Ted Kennedy said in a related statement, "I have no real comment on this matter since I have never been to any Six Flags Over Ceadar Fair parks or what ever they are called. But I will investigate this terrible travesty and conspiracy by visiting all of the Busch parks.... Or at the very least sampling all of the Anheisure Busch products."

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coasterdude318 said:
What do you expect them to do? What the manufacturer says goes.

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Right... because the customer that buys $25 million rides couldn't possibly have any influence on the manufacturer...

More from The Plain Dealer.

Note that it wasn't me that said "don't mess with my ride." I was just summarizing the feeling of you people. :)

The Carole Sanderson quote was interesting. Sounds like she just doesn't get it.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, but I was thinking about is that sometimes test seats do *NOT* match the ride's actual seats. Most rides do have the correct ones, but I seem to recall that TTD had the MF seat and it was not quite right, so some peopel who fit the test seat were kicked off. Was that wrong, or was that fixed?

It will certainly be interesting to see what happens with future purchases from other parks that were planning on buying Intamin prodcts over the next few years.

CP Boy said:

I want it fixed for everyone. It was stated earlier that the coaster companies should get together to make one unique seat that will fit all people and i think that that is a great idea. And if that wont happen, I think Intamin should realize that the people of the US aren't all 32" and weight 150, and something should be done to ensure that many people can ride their products, or they may end up shutting down when amusement parks start realizing their competition is producing products that fit the heavier crowd.

My reply:

Then why don't we all sit back and wait until the season is over and the park and Intamin will do something better, I assure you. If they don't, I will happily jump into the bandwagon that Cedar Point needs to do something.

Again I ask, if you make a seat for larger people, how will you be able to determine what smaller people can't ride? I've asked this question multiple times, and no one will answer it because you can't do that. With larger people, you can have a limit on safety that is enforcable. With smaller people, you can't other than height. The chairs will change, but it still won't be "perfect."

Jeff said:

Right... because the customer that buys $25 million rides couldn't possibly have any influence on the manufacturer...

My reply:

Jeff, I'm sure that Cedar Fair would have some influence over them... However, if it came out that Cedar Fair strongarmed Intamin into changing the policy on how to run their ride, how bad would that look! Add to that the fact that Ohio forces you to put all manufacturers suggestions into play, and I ca see countless lawsuits from the state against Cedar Fair over this. So in the long run, whether they have the influence or not, they can't use it in this situation.

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Jeff said:

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coasterdude318 said:
What do you expect them to do? What the manufacturer says goes.

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Right... because the customer that buys $25 million rides couldn't possibly have any influence on the manufacturer...

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Exactly!

/lurk off

As an attorney who represents surety (bonding) companies for major projects - if Intamin came walking into my office right now looking for a bond, I would probably start laughing, look at their safety record in comparison with other coaster manufacturers and then either recommend to my bond company client: a) don't take them, or b) insist they modify their designs in order to have a safer restraint system that satisfies provisions of Title III of the ADA, which could apply (I'm not a ADA lawyer so I couldn't make that judgment call) and charge the living heck out of them for the bond since someone is most likely going to come along and make a claim against it eventually.

People have brought up that their restraint and seating designs are for Europeans and that the European parks have these standards already. Are we in Europe? No. Intamin has the obligation to design to American body type standards, like other coaster manufacturers have done. By not doing so they open themselves up to liability and suit since their product is in the US.

What really gets me PO'd is the alleged comments by Intamin's president which try to deflect blame to people being overweight rather than the marginal design of their restraints - should I mention Hydro as the obvious example of the failure of their restraints to keep normal or smaller sized people safely in the car? Yes, I know he's an engineer but that's no excuse as the president of a multi-national operating company, get the guy some media training!

As for the claims that you can't be cutting edge and still restrain larger people - prove it to me. B&M Flyers are cutting edge and their restraints are very generous to large people, pushing the edge is no excuse for failing to comply with standards.

Have Fun!

George

- The previous message is my personal opinion and, well, deal with it!

/lurk on *** Edited 5/21/2004 2:46:58 PM UTC by CoasterGeorge***

I wouldn't buy from Intamin again just based on Kernac's comment in one of the New England papers where he said something to the effect of deaths on their rides being a small percentage of all riders. As if a few are acceptable. Stupid.

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Gemini said:
The Carole Sanderson quote was interesting. Sounds like she just doesn't get it.

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Not a very president like quote now is it for the president of an enthusiasts club?

"Oh, by the way, all you enthusiasts who used to be able to ride MF but can't now, tough luck" is the way I read it.

Whatever happened to, "we should work together with the parks to ensure that the coaster is safe and can be made safe for all guests who were previously able to ride the ride" ?

This may bring up a touchy issue but why is this issue any different than wanting to preserve old roller coasters? Riders who were previously able to ride MF want to preserve their former riding status. *** Edited 5/21/2004 3:18:48 PM UTC by Eric H***

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thrillfan said:
One thing that hasn't been mentioned, but I was thinking about is that sometimes test seats do *NOT* match the ride's actual seats.

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In speaking with the ride op working entrance the other day, it was explained to me that any discrepancies that may exist between the test seat and the trains' seats are being compensated for.

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Eric H said:

Not a very president like quote now is it for the president of an enthusiasts club?

"Oh, by the way, all you enthusiasts who used to be able to ride MF but can't now, tough luck" is the way I read it.

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I actually appreciate Carole's honesty here. Sometimes, you have to throw caution to the wind and say how you feel, which is what she did. Its a touchy situation made even more touchy because CP refused to explain why this rule is being enforced like this after the coaster had four years of very successful (and very safe) operation.

I am all for being diplomatic and such, but there are instances where things shouldn't be sugar-coated just for the sake of keeping the peace. This is one of them.

To the person who insists that closing down Millennium and making appropriate (not knee-jerk) changes will drop the stock price, will you please in your infinite financial wisdom and mastery of the stock market explain to me that when Dragster was down for a significant portion of last year, my Cedar Fair stock went up in value? I'd just like to hear the reasoning there ...

I think the Point will change their tune soon. Once word got out about the Geauga Lake free tickets thing and it generated news stories around the general vicinity, the policy was changed within what, a couple of weeks? I think the fact that we're talking not just one article here in an afternoon Cleveland newspaper, we're talking TV and newspaper stories in the three major cities closest to the Point (has Detroit run anything yet?) exposing this problem and it's reaction not just from enthusiasts but from average Joe, has CP re-evaluating their options right now and hopefully we'll see some sort of better thought-out solution to the problem in the coming week or two.

--Brett, who is doing a slow, intense boil but withholding comment on the issue of "there are other things to do there" ... *** Edited 5/21/2004 3:41:58 PM UTC by Impulse-ive***

No action will be taken until Scott Taylor and the ACTION News team steps in! :)

Well, she came off as being very unsympathetic to the situation. She may have actually stated other points in her quotes but those were the lines chosen to be used. The written word does not always accurately reflect inflection and the emotion behind it.

I also do not disagree with her that there are numerous other things to do at Cedar Point.

I just still think her comments are going to come off as insensitive to the complaints of guests who were previously able to ride that are not able to ride. That is the heart of the matter for the majority of those who are complaining.

See, I interpreted it as her sympathizing with the enthusiasts that can't ride. Like you said, when words are put on paper, they are often hard to interpret.

Cedar Point builds new rides for a reason. There's a reason Millennium Force is one of the highest rated coasters in the world. There's a reason why Cedar Point markets Millennium Force and Top Thrill Dragster more than any of their other attractions.

When you say there are a billion other things to do, you're missing the point.

But Gemini, wouldn't you be missing the "Point" of you didn't do other things besides those two rides!? ;)

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself. Stressful day at work and I needed a short laugh.