Christian group says Disney no-fly zone interferes with free speech

Oh please... trying to get people to change out of love? That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard, and easily the biggest hypocrisy that "popular" Christianity has to offer. I checked your verses against other translations, and again, no mention of homosexuality even implied. This is assuming of course that you subscribe to Christianity at all. If you don't, well, the argument is pointless. You can't convince anyone who doesn't share your belief in the first place. (For the record, I believe in God, not a book, and firmly believe that "He," or more than likely "She," is actually the same being other major religions believe in, seperated by thousands of years and the dispersion of mankind and regional alteration of belief systems.)

You know, my hall director in college told one of my fellow RA's, and Indian fellow, out of "love" he (and 700 million other people) was going to hell for being Hindu. He quit and nearly sued the school, and frankly I don't blame him.

Even within Christianity we all believe different things, but yet these religious extremists are all so certain that they're right that they spend more time "loving" people by telling them they're wrong, bombing abortion clinics, crashing planes into buildings, burning crosses, etc., that they fail to do any real good in the world, like feed starving children, give blood, help build a house, etc.

If you want to save the world, there are plenty of problems that require real action.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"Pray that your country undergoes recovery!" - KMFDM

Kev did a nice job getting to the text.

Leviticus 18:22 is the passage that is often used to condemn homosexual behavior in general. In transliterated Hebrew, the verse is written: "V’et zachar lo tishkav mishk’vey eeshah toeyvah hee."

English translations of this verse vary. Some are:

ESV: (English Standard Version): "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is abomination.

" KJV: (King James Version): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination".

LB: (Living Bible): "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin"

NIV: (New International Version) "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." NLT: (New Living Translation): "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

RSV: (Revised Standard Version): "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination .

Then what follows is Leviticus 20:13. In transliterated Hebrew, the verse is written: "V'ish asher yishkav et zachar mishk'vei ishah to'evah asu shneihem mot yumatu d'meihem bam." However, it adds a compulsory death penalty to the participants. In standard English the passage has been translated:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

Christians no longer call on the death penalty for homosexuals. Only Christian Reconstructionists and a few Christian "hate groups" wish to revert to exile or mass executions of gays and lesbians today.

What get's me his how the Reconstructionists choose to stress on these two commandments of the Mosaic Code while not following the majority of the approximent 300 morden commandments of the Mosaic Code.

That's where they back themselves into a hole. They haveno logical explanation to why Reconstructists concentrate so much on these two laws against homosexuality while abandoning most of the rest.

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Lake Compounce-So Fresh and So Clean Clean
*** This post was edited by Vertigo 6/5/2003 11:42:22 AM ***

Let's not forget the nearby verses condemning hetero adulterers to the same sentence. I think the extremists would tire themselves out stoning their own first.
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya 6/5/2003 11:50:24 AM ***

Jeff,

I should not be surprised that you, too, were an RA. We were both crazy.

In any event, God has been trying to hold the World together while religion has been trying to tear it apart. God is holding on, but barely.

Wasn't this discussion about no-fly zones at one time? I wonder if they retired the Mickey ears hot air balloon. I assume that it won't be able to fly over property now either.

I hate it when people quote Levitucus. According to that book of the bible, if you have sex with a woman while on her period, thats considered a sin. My point is, Levitucus was written to be a set of rules to help ensure healthy practices among the Israelites. If these laws were followed, there would be less disease. At any rate, I seriously doubt that God wants us to follow the rules in Levitucus exactly, so I never listen to any arguments against homosexuality using Lev. I guess this will open up the argument of literal translation vs. figurative translation, but oh well.

Well, Jeff, that's cause Reconstructist follow blasphemy.Their golden belief is that that every area dominated by sin must be 'reconstructed' in terms of the Bible.

This statement will be my opinion and final post:

Their followers are attempting to "peacefully" convert the laws of United States so that they match those in the Hebrew Scriptures. One of their first goals is to eliminate religious freedom. Their eventual goal is to achieve the "Kingdom of God" in which much of the world will be converted to Christianity. They feel that the power of God's word will bring about this conversion. No armed force or insurrection will be needed, supposedly. In fact, they believe that there will be little opposition to their plan. People are supposed to willingly accept it if properly presented to them.

...but peacefully is the last word they should be using. There wish of the Bible as the Constitution is not gonna happen in their lifetime, but aiming to turn the Mosaic Codes into the laws of this country... it's like aiming for tolitarianism, world domination, and absolute power!

---

If they gained control of the US federal government, there would be many changes:

-the use of the death penalty would be greatly expanded, when the Hebrew Scriptures' laws are reapplied. People will be executed for adultery, blasphemy, heresy, homosexuality , idolatry, prostitution, evil sorcery, abortion, etc.

-an individual who does not accept the Mosaic Law has another god before them, and is thus guilty of idolatry. That would be punishable by death. That would include all non-Christians. At the present time, they total two-thirds of the human race.

-Hawaii would be given back to the native Hawaiians.

-income taxes would be eliminated

-it would be logical to assume that the institution of slavery would be reintroduced, and regulated according to Biblical laws. Fathers could sell their daughters and wife into slavery. A portion of Reconstructionists actually believe that legalizing slavery would be good for North America.

---

These people think they're gonna start World War III, which is why the federal government must put the movent of the Reconstructist in one ear and out the other.

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Lake Compounce-So Fresh and So Clean Clean

First, I want to just thank everyone for keeping the discussion positive. Moosh, loved the post, CoastaPlaya, someone needs to hire you to do PR to explain the world to itself, and Jeff, good dose of reality in your posts as well.

As much as I hate these bible-beating, bible-misquoting, sign-waving idiots, I occasionally have to admire their cajones.

Recently a small group of them set up a protest right in the middle of Pride festivites here in Philly. On the one hand, I really had to wonder what kind of idiot goes right into the lion's den and protests, and thinks that's going to change anyone, but on the other hand, a SMALL part of me had to admire their determination and cajones for doing such a thing (stupid as it was).

Another point that really ticks me off about the ignorant crowd is the already-mentioned double-standard on clothing and Public Displays Of Affection. It's ok for pre-teen-aged girls to wear the most ridiculous and skimpy outfits (god I'm gonna hurl just typing that), but heaven forbid a gay man wear something just a little bit tight.

And even more so with the PDA.... two guys holding hands or kissing? Ewwwww.... some people freak out. But oi vey, the things I've seen STRAIGHT people do in line, my god, I shouldn't need digital cable anymore.

While we're probably a LONG way off from seeing parks actually sanction and sponsor Gay Days at their parks, I think the fact that they don't discourage it is great. Heck, ANY day I go to a park is gay day as far as I'm concerned ;)

Finis.

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Men are like parking spaces... the good ones are all taken and the rest are handicapped or too far away.
www.TiggerMan.com

Jesus also said to remove the plank in your own eye before you point out the speck in someone else's eye.

The best thing for Christians to do in this world is to live a pure, blameless lifestyle, loving God and their neighbors. Any witnessing should come in the form of discussing issues with people you've made friends with, not random insinuations or condemnations.

Personally, I will say that homosexuality is a sin against God, but then again it's no worse than any of the sins I commit every day, such as taking the Lord's name in vain, lying, lust, breaking laws, not respecting authority, etc. Christ said there isn't a "scale" of sin... if you break the smallest law, you're as bad as a murderer. No one is free of sin and *everyone* needs God's grace to get into heaven.

So the best thing to do is treat everyone with love and respect and let God decide who is going to get into heaven. And see John 3:16 for a hint.

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A day is a drop of water in the ocean of eternity. A week is seven drops.

The extremists who bomb abortion clinics certainly constitute an infinitesimal percentage of believers. You are right that they are foolish, but you yourself called them "extremists," who by very definition represent the fringe element of Christianity.

Just out of curiosity, how does the notion of hell fit into your theological view? Do you believe that all who do not confess Jesus as savior will spend eternity where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth," as Jesus said?

Millions of people, "mainstream" Christians, believe in the reality of Hell because Jesus spoke to it. (In fact, how can one disbelieve Jesus and still consider himself a Christian when "Christian" is, by definition, one who follows and believes in (Jesus) Christ?)

If your Hall director was convicted that your Hindu friend was going to spend eternity in Hell, telling his friend about this belief is actually a very bold, gutsy, and, in my opinion, "caring" action. It would have been much easier to stand on the sidelines and do nothing. If a Hindu tells me I am going to suffer eternal damnation or some other misfortune, I respect his right to tell me that, and, in my best interests, I might attempt to learn more about that religion and see for myself. I would appreciate the fact that he would care enough to tell me.

Be careful not to judge "the church" by what you read in the headlines. I used to work at a church as a bookkeeper, and 50% of all giving went directly to "missions". While some of this 50% is given to missionary work, most goes to ministries such as homeless shelters, outreach community centers for kids with poor home situations, pregnancy crisis centers, prison ministries, and other such avenues. Not only are these ministries funded largely by voluntary giving, but are sustained largely through volunteer work. For the record, the church also has two blood drives per year.

Yet it is the people who bomb abortion clinics, not people who donate time and money to the local community center, who get the headlines. Sort of like the one coaster accident gets reported while the millions of flawless rides get no attention.

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Buy "Stereotype Be" from Kevin Max at Amazon.com

Kevin: Frankly my religious view of anything, outside of what I've offered, is none of your freakin' business.

You don't get it... what you believe doesn't mean jack to me, or frankly anyone else. Anyone who quotes scripture is little more than a literary academic to those who don't believe the same thing. In other words, your ideology means exactly squat to everyone else.

My hall director wasn't being "courageous" or "caring," he was being an asshole. Ask yourself this... if you were born in India as my friend was, would you be a Christian today? Not a chance. In fact, what makes you so sure your religion and belief system is the "right" one? Because it's what you were brought up in?

The only answer you have there is faith. Without it, you have no reason to subscribe to any religion at all. Faith is like an opinion... everyone has one, and unfortunately it's shaped by your environment and infrequently questioned. You know what opinions are like, so I think you know where you can stick your faith.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"Pray that your country undergoes recovery!" - KMFDM

Just to offer a little perspective in the Kevin/Jeff argument:

One of my best friends is a former Hindu who was born in India and lived there until he was a teenager. He became a Christian in college because of the influence of a friend -- not one who told him he was going to hell, but whose life reflected Christ. My friend's Hinduism was not fulfilling his life, and he wondered why his Christian friend was so happy, so he looked into it, asked questions, and that became his new faith. He's now one of the strongest Christians I know.

So faith isn't always what you were brought up to believe. My friend's Hindu parents (who now live in Ohio, too) rarely speak to him because of his choice.

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A day is a drop of water in the ocean of eternity. A week is seven drops.

I'd just like to go on the record on three points:

First, the apparent "double-standard" between gay and hetero PDA's. If you've every really listened to "extreme" groups, they tend to crack down on heteros as well, basically saying that anyone being sexual with someone of the opposite sex they are not married to is a sinner. There was a recent crackdown of the "Girl's Gone Wild" producer (s) in the state of Florida, spearheard by several so-called Christians.

Second on the topic of the Bible being "raped" over the years. I truely believe that the Bible says today exactly what God intended for it to say today. I absolutely reject the claim that the Bible has become somehow a perversion of God's words and now says something that God did not mean to say. Admittedly, I have come to this conclusion as a matter of FAITH and not fact. But I pose this question to any so-called Christian who thinks that the Bible is no longer really what God intended: If God cannot even protect His own words, does He really have the power to save souls? I believe He does save souls. Likewise, I believe He can as does protect His own honor.

Thrid, some of these people are not really Christians. They may indeed believe that they are saved through Jesus Christ. But it is not until one strives to become a "little Christ" that they become a Christian. Unfortunately, in current times we have equated attending a Christian church with Christianity. But even within the walls of the church there are some who are not saved.

I dont want to go to much further, else I'll relapse into "Sunday School Teacher" mode. But the tenets that both Kevin and Den touched on above deserve a second look.

lata, jeremy

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The world's next Miss Universe?

Adding in here, and quite late. Little would anyone here actually know about me, moreso because I don't run around with my bible-loving head cut off, but I........... yes I............ am a Christian. In the most conservative way too. Yet, I love all my friends, gay or straight, righteous, or "unrighteous." The reason I do so is I firmly believe that if Jesus were walking the Earth today, He would indeed be telling most of us to go **** themselves. We are all full of ****. We are a foul, hateful bunch of idiots who proclaim ourselves to be pure, and "guided." We are misguided. I follow the words of Christ, but being human I also have moments of lust, idiocy, foulness (more than I care to admit), etc. etc. I have been arrested. I have hit a woman. I even once wanted to have sex with a kid when I babysat her at the tender age of 12, because I wanted to know what it was like to do it. She was 11, by the way. Why am I telling you this? Because I am not scared to admit that the "righteousness" (see yours truly) in me is at fault, because I am human. Yet, I am created in the image of God. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Oh, and sometimes..........? I say the F word.
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I have been arrested more than you

"If God cannot even protect His own words, does He really have the power to save souls?"

That's a very good question, and as you've said, you have to go on faith there. Who among us hasn't asked similarly why bad things happen to good people? At the end of the day, all you can do is have faith. God gave us all free will, and that means unfortunately we have the ability to mess with His word and His planet. They're in our hands, and we don't always do what's best for them.

Den: I give your friend a lot of credit. You get at one of the core reasons for the human need for religion: fulfillment. The brand of Christianity I grew up with never offered that. Not to mention, I observed a lot of hateful things done in the name of God that, frankly, I didn't want to be a part of.

Somewhere in college, I too started "shopping around." The eastern religions in particularly interested me. In the end, after talking to a very wise pastor at my college, I settled on what I can only describe as my own, fundamental brand of Christianity. These fundamentals can be found in really any religion, and because of that, I no longer feel the need for absolutes; The core values of basic human respect are good enough for me.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com - Sillynonsense.com
"Pray that your country undergoes recovery!" - KMFDM

I think the Disney flight ban is a good idea and I think those people who are going to fly such banners are rude.

My one good friend wrote an outstanding article on this suject which I think fits in well with this. It gives information on what Jesus said on the subject, what the bible says, ect.

The article can be found at http://narphonax.com/piss5.html

It sounds like Jeff and I have ultimately settled down on the same "religion". I was born and baptized a Catholic, and then raised a Jehovah's Witness. I have not REJECTED these beliefs, but as I've grown older I've come to realize that there are a LOT of religions out there. They ALL believe they're "the right one". They can't all be right. Odds are, they can't all be wrong.

So, what do I believe? They're ALL right -- different facets of the same gemstone. Yet they're ALL wrong, if just because they all claim to be the ONLY right religion, which is obviously impossible.

Instead, they're different facets of the same gemstone. When you really come down to it, all religions teach many of the same basic tenents -- love and respect. I'm Christian-influenced, because that's how I was raised, but that doesn't make Muslims, Hindus, Jews, or any other faith any less acceptable. All of these religions have their zealots, and their extremists who pervert the message in the name of their own aims. I consider the self-professed Christians who show such extreme hate and intolerance, selectively following parts of the Bible to further their cause while ignoring the bits they themselves fall short of, to be in this category themselves.

Remember, today's myths are yesterday's religion. People really did BELIEVE in Zeus at one point.

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--Greg, aka Oat Boy
My page
"Mary Jane, don't you cry, you can give it a try, Again when the sequel comes out" -- Weird Al, Ode to a Superhero*** This post was edited by GregLeg 6/5/2003 4:44:59 PM ***

Jeff asked me earlier today if I had seen this thread yet. I told him I was avoiding it :) But, I find myself here anyway. Hopefully, my thoughts will add substance to the conversation.

Wahoo Skipper said: "If someone leads a good, christian life and happens to be a homosexual I believe that person will be accepted into heaven."

Fortunately, that is not what the Bible says. The Bible says that Jesus is the only way to God (John 4:16) and that getting to heaven is only available as a gift from God and not by the things we do or life we lead (Ephesians 2:8,9). Everyone is free to believe what they want, but that is what the Bible says. I say 'fortunately' because if it were up to just leading a good life, no one would be good enough to get into heaven.

Den said: "Personally, I will say that homosexuality is a sin against God, but then again it's no worse than any of the sins I commit every day, such as taking the Lord's name in vain, lying, lust, breaking laws, not respecting authority, etc. Christ said there isn't a "scale" of sin... if you break the smallest law, you're as bad as a murderer. No one is free of sin and *everyone* needs God's grace to get into heaven."

This is what basically I was about to write, but I see that Den had already summed it up nicely. It is unfortunate that some in the Christian community try to make homosexuality a "special" sin, somehow worse than others. The focus on homosexuality - or any other specific sin - is ridiculous. Now, I am speaking to the Christian community here. Obviously, there are many who would not agree that homosexuality is a sin - and that's fine. The wonderful thing about free will is that we all get to look at the facts and to make our own choices on whatever the topic may be.

I know it is cliché, but it really is about a relationship with God rather than religion. I make no apologies for my beliefs and the fact that I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. How could I? It has been and continues to be a powerful, life-changing experience.

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Walt Schmidt - Virtual Midway
"Okay, here we are, alt dot nerd dot obsessive." - Comic Book Guy

Somebody open a window--it's gettin all holy up in dis piece.

Hostyl, great post. I agree that not all churchgoers are really "Christians".

Den, I think you've made a great point. Several of the strongest Christians I know became Christians later in life through getting to know "real" (in Jeremy's words) Christians who seemed to have a real fulfillment and contentment. I become inspired when I am around these people. In my mind, if you catch glimpse of people who have what you want (peace of mind, a certain joy), it makes you want to be around them and more like them.

On the other hand, I partly agree with Jeff's "none of your freaking business" comment. When I went to a church for the first time during my freshman year in college, a woman and her husband sitting next to me started asking me tons of questions, including,"Would you like to join our Bible study?" Their intentions were good, but I felt like asking,"Would you please get out of my face?" So, the only time I really talk to people about faith is if they solicit my thoughts. (Except in this forum). Pushiness is a turn-off, no doubt about it.

Jeff also makes a good point by stating that fulfillment is why we look to religion. I think another good word is "purpose". Who am I supposed to be? What am I doing here? Am I more than just matter -- "ashes to ashes" -- or do I have some type of eternal purpose? Without answers to these questions, life can seem meaningless, empty, and depressing. I've been there. And so, thinking about it from this perspective--of people who feel as though they finally have found answers-- I can see how they would be enthusiastic about sharing it with others.

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Buy "Stereotype Be" from Kevin Max at Amazon.com

I see Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on doors a couple at a time to share something. When you actually share something, you put yourself on the same level as the next person. You're not better than them, you're not their superior. Furthermore, those folks in those little suits and dresses and whatnot risk the possibility of rude behavior, attacking dogs or worse. It's like opening up to a relationship with someone else...when you share, you also venture the risk of rejection or possibly harm.

What's the message of a gaggle of slogan-chanting, banner-waving people? We're better than you and you better shape up or God's gonna take you out. You can flower it up however you want--but at its essence, that's precisely what it is. There is no substance except their hatred. There is no 'sharing' involved. And there's just no defending their hypocrisy.

-'Playa

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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya 6/5/2003 5:58:59 PM ***