Canceling trip to HW this world summer

Thursday, April 2, 2015 10:39 AM
kpjb's avatar

I've never wanted to go to the wedding of two people who I don't know until you started posting those pics. That day was off the charts.


Hi

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Thursday, April 2, 2015 11:28 AM

slithernoggin said:

I was reading about the Indiana pizzeria whose owner appeared on the local news saying they would never cater a gay wedding. (I'm guessing they've also never been asked to cater a wedding, gay or otherwise.) Social media went crazy; they subsequently said they are of course happy to serve gay couples in the pizzeria.

And I thought, what? So it's cool to take gay money here, but not there? The owner's religious beliefs can't tolerate endorsing same sex marriages, but their religious beliefs are AOK with counting the same sex dollars that walk in the door?

I don't understand what you have a problem with here.

I'm not familiar with the story, but from your post it sounds to me that the pizzeria owners are not the hateful, bigoted people you think they are. They are happy to do business with anyone, regardless of whether you share their beliefs, they just don't want to be placed in situations where they are not comfortable.

slithernoggin said:

Short story long. Certainly in the case of that pizzeria, and most likely with many of those bakers and florists, their principles are for sale. Now they're just haggling over price.

*I don't get this objection. Unless they've an invitation to the wedding, then they're like the caterer and the tuxedo rental shop: vendors, not participants.

Maybe your interpretation of their principles is just incorrect and they are not selling out when they accept you at their business.

I don't know why anyone would want to hire a photographer to take pictures at an event he is not comfortable at. I think you would get much better results from someone who can appreciate what the event is about.

I can understand a photographer or a caterer not wanting to be involved in an event that they have personal issues with. I have a little less empathy for a baker that refuses to bake a cake because someone might put two plastic grooms or brides on it rather than one of each, but everybody has their own level of sensitivity, and some people are really uptight.

I agree the laws that are being passed right now seem to be reaching for more what is reasonable, and the people pushing for them appear paranoid and disingenuous.

I do think there are legitimate times that a business owner should be able to say "I don't want to do this", and your response should be "okay, let me find someone who does", rather than causing a media frenzy. If reasonable options become difficult to find, then something needs to be addressed.

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Thursday, April 2, 2015 12:10 PM

This law is still too broad sweeping. Even though it was written specifically so businesses would not have to serve a gay wedding (without saying so), the way it was written is that any person could use "religious beliefs" over government rule to defend their actions against another person.

If they wanted to allow businesses not to participate in gay weddings, then the law should have said just that and only that. There would have still been fallout, but the way it was worded allowed for outright broad discrimination (and other crimes) based on religious beliefs.

Now a law that was written specifically against gay weddings has anti-discrimination wording against LGBT for the first time in Indiana law. Just the opposite of what it was trying to accomplish.

The added wording prohibiting discrimination is only part of the issue. The way I understand it, It still has the hole of allowing religious beliefs to be a defense in acts of one person to another other than discrimination.

One thing that is for sure, the leaders on Indiana created a huge mess. It would have been better to scrap the law and start over. But then they would have had to admit that they were wrong, and it was more than a "misunderstanding." The group that put this into law is definitely a bunch of liars that talk out of both sides of their mouths.

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Thursday, April 2, 2015 3:37 PM

sfglbkf said:
They are happy to do business with anyone, regardless of whether you share their beliefs, they just don't want to be placed in situations where they are not comfortable.

So following that line of logic, you probably have an issue with the segregation laws passed in the '60's that kept business owners from doing business with people of other color because they weren't "comfortable".


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Thursday, April 2, 2015 4:10 PM
rollergator's avatar

If treating others as your equal makes you "uncomfortable" - maybe they're not the ones with a problem?

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Thursday, April 2, 2015 5:25 PM
slithernoggin's avatar

sfglbkf said:

I don't understand what you have a problem with here.

That their objection is based on location, not piety. If they've religious objections to gay customers, where those customers are shouldn't matter.

I'm not familiar with the story, but from your post it sounds to me that the pizzeria owners are not the hateful, bigoted people you think they are.

Actually I think they are probably very nice people who got caught up in a situation they never expected.

They are happy to do business with anyone...

Not according to them. As they said, they wouldn't cater a gay wedding.

...they just don't want to be placed in situations where they are not comfortable.

They're not guests at the wedding. If the clients aren't picking up the cake, at most they're delivering a cake to the client's venue, which may or may not be where the wedding will take place.

I don't know why anyone would want to hire a photographer to take pictures at an event he is not comfortable at.

Because he's a really good photographer? Because he has very attractive rates? A professional photographer will keep his comfort level to himself and do his best job for his clients.


Life is something that happens when you can't get to sleep.
--Fran Lebowitz

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Thursday, April 2, 2015 6:37 PM

Slither since you are in favor of pushing the left's agenda of intolerance on those who have strong religious beliefs. The left idiots forced the pizzeria to close down thanks to threats made by the gays and left wing fools. The left talk about being tolerant but onyl if it goes thier way. The pizzeria refuses to cater to gay and lesbian weddings and so was threatened. So how is this being tolerant of thier religious beliefs. The pizzeria and other businesses have the right to refuse you serve even if you act like a gangster with your pants down below your ass showing your underwear to everyone to see. It's not discrimination at all but standing up for your beliefs.

The left shouldn't be forcing thier agenda down the business' owners throats by violence after the boycotts don't work. It's time that this nation as a whole stop being PC and thin skinned on every issue. If gays and lesbians want equality then keep your sex life in the bedroom and not out in the open. I have lesbians friends from high school and I treat them as equals since they don't push thier lifestyle in my face.

Last edited by Screamlord, Thursday, April 2, 2015 6:40 PM
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Thursday, April 2, 2015 7:32 PM

Screamlord, so if your two lesbian friends wanted to hold hands out in public or give each other a kiss, you'd no longer treat them as equals because they dared to physically express their love for each other where *gasp* other people might see them?

I think you're kind of missing slithernoggin's point (and most other people's points). These are BUSINESSES. They lost the right to claim religious freedom when they opened a public business that provides a service to the people. If you want to discriminate, well, I guess that's what church is for.

I agree with you that in some respects, many people push "tolerance" down other people's throats but don't accept that others may have different views or beliefs. I also agree that threatening or carrying out violence to get your way is inexcusable. Just because one person doesn't like the actions or words of another person doesn't make it ok to threaten another person. Those who threaten violence to make sure they get their way are bullies, and their actions are actually probably counterproductive to their agendas.

One more thing: multiple studies and surveys have been done regarding liberals and conservatives, and those "left idiots" have actually been proven to typically be more intelligent, more creative, more open-minded, and generally more successful than their conservative right-leaning counterparts. Judging from the arguments here, I'd tend to agree.


"Look at us spinning out in the madness of a roller coaster" - Dave Matthews Band

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Thursday, April 2, 2015 8:02 PM

Screamlord said:

The left shouldn't be forcing thier agenda down the business' owners throats

I was wondering when this would happen. It's always the fascination with forcing it down their throats. You hear that phrase used almost every time. I wonder what Freud would say to that.

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Thursday, April 2, 2015 8:42 PM
Pete's avatar

:) Post of the day!


I'd rather be in my boat with a drink on the rocks, than in the drink with a boat on the rocks.

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Thursday, April 2, 2015 8:44 PM

I remember when I was a child in elementary school, when lunchtime came around, you were served ONE entree. It was "take it or leave it". Then something happened in my school. One of the students turned out to be from a family of Hindus, and that family was upset because the entree on that day was hamburgers. The School agreed to offer that student an alternative when the meat served that day was beef. Then ANOTHER thing happened. When the other students found out what he got to eat, and they were GREEN with envy! Because his meal was "customised" the quality of that kids meal were better than what the rest of us ate. Complaints were never resolved, and I went my way, the other student went his way.

Fast-Forward to today. At lunchtime students have a choice on what's served. A typical lunch may have these choices

1. Hamburger. If you want cheese, you have to ask and a slice will be given to you. (It is taboo for Jews to combine dairy with deli (Meat)

2. Chicken. If beef or another kind of meat offends you this is the alternative.

3. Caesar Salad, for all those who are on a vegetarian diet.\

All this is done for the sake of "Religious Freedom"

I could just imagine if there was a food Christians found "offensive". Any objections would be kicked aside aside in the name of "Separation of Church and State". It seems the Rights of of every Race and Creed cover every group EXCEPT Christianity. HOLY HYPOCRISY BATMAN! Well guess what? Christians HAVE RIGHTS TOO! It's time for us to take a stand on what we believe is right. I forgive the G8y community for what they do, but I don not condone it either.

PS I have NEVER had a bad meal served by a Jew, they certainly know how to cook! ;)


Answer my Prayers, Overbook my next Flight!
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Thursday, April 2, 2015 8:44 PM
OhioStater's avatar

Quit expressing your love and fondness for your God out in the open. I find it quite offensive and I'm tired of having that God shoved down my throat. Keep your religious beliefs in the church where they belong and not out in the open.

Now does that sound tolerant?

Millions of Christians are in dire need of learning a lesson about love and acceptance.

What happened? Did we run out of those WWJD bracelets back in 1997? I think they need to start passing them out again.

Last edited by OhioStater, Thursday, April 2, 2015 9:26 PM
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Thursday, April 2, 2015 9:09 PM
LostKause's avatar

Regulus said:

I could just imagine if there was a food Christians found "offensive".

Christians SHOULD not eat pork. But a lot of Christians cherry pick as to what their beliefs should be, based on already established bigotry.

If a Christian has a problem with gays, then they sure had better have a problem with anyone who eats pork. And that's just one example.

And that's why I find it hilarious that Chic-Fil-A sells ham and bacon during breakfast hours.


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Thursday, April 2, 2015 9:44 PM

There are many reasons Christians eat pork now. New Testament, Christ Dying for their (and ALL our) sins (and Lord knows we have a lot), many new Testament Bible passages, Christ's words, etc. (all found in the Bible when you read it all the way through, instead of trying to pick out one verse) So please be respectful of their faith without twisting it to fit your logic. There are reasons Muslims don't and some Christians...and many other walks of life yes, but that's lessons for some other time.

That is why Chik-Fil-A sells ham and bacon during breakfast hours...no cherry picking or bigotry...just straight following scripture.

Now...back to coaster trip planning ;-)

Last edited by RollerCoasterGod, Thursday, April 2, 2015 9:47 PM
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Thursday, April 2, 2015 9:48 PM
LostKause's avatar

That is my belief too, RollerCoasterGod. So why do Christian Extremists get so nervous about sharing a world with gay people? My only conclusion is that they are afraid, because of their own insecurities with their sexuality, and so they fight the idea that God designed homosexuality into nature. This idea is spread around not only every Sunday morning in Churches across the country, but also daily, whenever the conversation comes about.

The suicide rate among teens is highest among kids who identify as gay. This is not because they can't stand themselves. It is because of the lies they hear from their own religious leaders and intolerant parents.

Religious Freedom? To do what? Discriminate? We Christians already have religious freedom.

I am intolerant of intolerant people, not Christians. :)

I know that the world will be a much better place because history repeats itself. I do find it difficult living through this transitional period in history though.

Rant over. lol

Last edited by LostKause, Thursday, April 2, 2015 9:50 PM
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Thursday, April 2, 2015 10:03 PM
ApolloAndy's avatar

When someone who's not a Christian becomes president or has their public school closed for another religion's holiday or has their children taught more Ramadan songs in school, I'll still think "Christianity is oppressed" is ridiculous, but slightly less ridiculous.


Hobbes: "What's the point of attaching a number to everything you do?"
Calvin: "If your numbers go up, it means you're having more fun."

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Thursday, April 2, 2015 10:06 PM

I would agree with you LostKause on many fronts of why teachings go beyond to what they were intended.

Do I know? Not even close. I wasn't around when Jesus walked the Earth. Like many people we can do I best to read, to understand, to learn from elders, etc.

That's why I say at the very beginning. We all have our opinions. We all will get accused at some point. We need to be tolerant. Understanding, and stop all these lawsuits.

I wish I had a better answer to the kids situation. I lost a cousin who was only 12 down in Florida a few years back for what you mentioned. I wish I would have been able to be around him as a leader for him, and as a friend.

All we can do is love each other, have some fun, ride some roller coasters together, and let the Big One do all the judging as he see's fit.

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Thursday, April 2, 2015 10:16 PM
LostKause's avatar

Very sorry to hear about your cousin. I'm happy to say that I agree with you on most everything.

And I want to point out that I don't think that a large percentage of Christian people are as closed-minded as many think they are. This whole thing has backfired for the reputation of Christians everywhere.


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Thursday, April 2, 2015 10:30 PM
LostKause's avatar

Sorry for the double post, but I just realized that my point in a post above might have been misinterpreted. I did not explain well enough, methinks.

The "don't eat pork" rule is in Leviticus. The "Don't be gay" rule is also in Leviticus. How can one rule matter and the other one not?


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Thursday, April 2, 2015 11:15 PM
slithernoggin's avatar

Screamlord said:

Slither since you are in favor of pushing the left's agenda of intolerance on those who have strong religious beliefs.

Type slowly and use small words: I want people to be treated the same (every person who walks in the door of a business gets to patronize that business) and you do not (business owners should be able to deny service to customers based on the owner's personal religious checklist of icky things) -- and I'm pushing intolerance?

The left idiots forced the pizzeria to close down thanks to threats made by the gays and left wing fools.

We could have a whole other discussion about the dark side of the Internet, and the power the anonymity of the Internet delivers to horrible people.

Those threats were not made by all the gays and by the "left wing fools." They were made by sick individuals.

As I've said, I think these pizzeria owners are probably very nice people who found themselves in a situation they never expected to be in. (Given the success of the GoFundMe campaign launched on their behalf, I think they'll be fine.)

The pizzeria and other businesses have the right to refuse you serve even if you act like a gangster with your pants down below your ass showing your underwear to everyone to see. It's not discrimination at all but standing up for your beliefs.

Well, I would argue that a business does not have the right to refuse service to a fully dressed individual. Whether the business owner likes the attire is immaterial; you give some things up when you choose to open your doors to the public -- whose tax dollars provide you with valuable support for your business.

If gays and lesbians want equality then keep your sex life in the bedroom and not out in the open.

Yes, please. Heterosexuals should keep their sex life in the bedroom and not out in the open. Why should I have heterosexuality forced down my throat every day, seeing straight couples holding hands, parading their offspring, and demanding special rights like wedding cakes?


Life is something that happens when you can't get to sleep.
--Fran Lebowitz

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