B&M parts at SFOG!

Max, that is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I read "pretzel loop", some variation on thast element - perhaps also related to the "bowtie" or "cutback"...basically, a B&M improvement over an existing Arrow/Vekoma element, but with a brand new name for it...;~)!
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the buzzer formerly known as gatorwoodie
Son of Drop Zone - PKI CoasterCamp I Champions!!!

If you want to see the picts, go to  http://www.bobarmstrong.net and click on new pictures.  You better hurry and save them, because he is taking them away after.

I can get you the aboslute final answer on what this coaster will be if you all just hold on one minute while I consult my "source"...

 
*shake shake*

It's most definitely a...

"try again later"

These magic 8 balls are a waste of money! Funny how they're just as credible as most of the "sources" I read about on this site. :)

That's not to say I don't think it's a flyer, it probably is. I just find it humorous how many buzzers have these "sources". I find it even more humorous that when someone guesses something right, they then claim to be "in the know".

Here's the extent of my 2002 park "knowledge":

I'll be visiting as many parks as possible and now I might have to add SFOG to the list. That's a fact you can put money on!
 
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*** This post was edited by Lord Gonchar on 12/3/2001. ***

If you look at the first pic on Bob Armstrong's page, you'll notice that the ends of the rails on one piece appear to have sensors mounted on the end. I think that this may serve as confirmation that it will have a double loading station- perhaps these are to ensure that the rails are properly aligned on the switch-track. Of course, they could also serve the same purpose on the storage transfer track. Hmmmm...

A "Pretzel Loop" is not similar to the first element on an SLC.  People have called me crazy but I stick with my guess:  inverted loop.

Pretzel loop. Hmmmm. B&M is pretty good at giving their elements an accurate descriptive name. I'd imagine a pretzel loop looks like a pretzel. Not unlike a Cobra Roll looking like the falred hood of a cobra ready to strike. So assuming the element looks like a pretzel, it sounds similar to their Batwings. Think of Montu's batwing. Here's a pic:

http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery87.htm?Picture=4

To make this look completely like a pretzel you just have to change the side that the train enters and exits from. On Montu you enter the element on the left, cut up and over to the left and do down and around to the other half loop and cut over and around and back out the right side.

Now imagine if you came in from the right but still went through the element from left to right. The track coming into it would cross over and up to the right side, the half corkscrew/halfloop, halfloop/half corckscrew combo stays the same and the coming out you cross under and leave the area from the left side.

I'm in a hotel room without my RCT disc and I haven't gotten No Limits yet, but I'd imagine you could make one of these rather easily and when viewed from the same angle as the Montu's Batwing in that pic, it'd look almost exactly like a pretzel.

Did that make sense?

Lord Gonchar:  I tried to e:mail you using the address in your profile but it bounced back.  Can you e:mail me? 

The question is... would that (could it actually) be done in the prone/flying position?
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Homey G, proud founder of the CCC. Join up now! :oÞ

I imagine it this way, Homey G. You come into the element in the flying position but you go through it on the inside, not the outside. Like I said, I don't have RCT available right now, but you could do this with the flying coaster. Just come into this element in the flying position, add a half cork, half loop, a couple pieces of straight track, half loop, half corckscrew and you'll come out of the element in the flying position just as you went into it, yet you take the inversions in the "on your back position" - I've actually used this "flying batwing" in many flying coasters I've made. The main difference here would be crossing over from right to left on the entry and crossing back from right to left on the exit to give the whole pretzel look.

It's easiest to describe in RCT talk but would actually look much better in No Limits with a little work. In my mind it's not nearly as sharp as the half cork / half loop combo. I see it as more gradual - almost like mirrored diving loops with the first half being a diving loop and the second half essentially being a diving loop in reverse order with the exit cutting back under the track that is the entry into the element.

I hope I'm using descriptive enough words to make this clear. In my head I can see it very clearly, it's just now coming out as well in words. Is anyone following my descriptions here?

*Edit added below*

I'll make another half baked example here. Check out this mantis photo:

http://www.joyrides.com/cedar_point/full/mantis3.htm

I'm assuming some knowledge of elements and Mantis by readers here. In this picture you can see Mantis' diving loop (the big element that takes up the top left quarter of the photo and is cut off on the left side) Just mirror this exact element on the exit from the element (right behind the photo building) - you'll end up with a huge pretzel looking element that if entered in the flying position would take you for one full inversion. You'd enter flying, be flat on your back and the bottom of the two half loops and exit in flying position again.

A minor stretch of the imagination to see it, but it's painfully obvious in my mind (and a tad frustrating to try to express it)

Then again, I could be totally wrong :)

*** This post was edited by Lord Gonchar on 12/3/2001. ***

This coaster had a pretzel loop. There is a picture on this page under the pretzel knot heading.

Of course, element names are specific to manufacturers so any of us could be right...

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I'm coming after you like VWXYZ.

Gonchar: I understand what you're saying.  my only question, and its very complicated, but here goes, is: would it flip to the outside or the inside.  before trying to answer, let me explain.

take the Mantis example.  I'm assuming that the riders will be in the flying position at the top of the inversion as well as going into the element itslef so the first part will essentially be a banked hill.  but which way will it bank?  to the outside so that you experience negative g's or to the inside so that you experience positive g's.

in my mind it might be better if you go in one way, then come out the other.  again, let me explain.  say you bank the entrance so that the riders get positive g's.  then the spine is pointed more or less toward the exit.  then you have the exit banked so that you get negative g's which means that, for the most part, the spines will touch each other.  this way you don't have to worry about riders hitting the exit while going through the entrance because they're being banked away from it.  it also helps because its one inversion with two sensations.

btw, I know how you feel because I can see the thing very clearly in my mind, but I'm not sure if I'm expressing it properly.

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Knott's Berry Farm Cuba ~South Park

Lord Gonchar:  you're on the right track [no pun intended] but you will not enter the Pretzel loop from the side.  No corks, immelmans, or dive loops are involved. The line of travel from entry to exit is in the same direction [linear] just like on a regular loop. 

Coasterjedi,

I never thought about it. You have a good point. The direction of the twist would make a hug difference. However I'm not sure it matters as I now see what Mamoosh is saying and he may very well be more correct than my guess.

Mamoosh,

I e-mailed you. I like your idea for the pretzel loop. I think I see what you're saying and assuming you entered low, swooped up, did a half loop / half loop combo and swooped back down and out, then it would look just like a pretzel from the side! Essentially with that inversion you'd be doing a front loop but on the inside of the loop. All coasters I've seen that loop do a back loop (back up over themselves and around) where this on would go down under itself and around but still be on the inside of the loop if entered in a flying position. Very cool.

This is my opinion of what a pretzel loop is:

http://coastergames.net/screenshots/full/1161.jpg

Still, I dont know very well how it could be done in flying position!

Daniel74: VERY VERY close. Now, just move the approach and exit so it's in line with the half loops and you got it!

Lord Gonchar: You may very well approach the inversion low, rise up, and then dive head first as I explained. To be honest I was so enthralled with the layout and inversion that I didn't pay much attention to the approach and exit. You're right, tho..that would look like a pretzel.

Daniel74,

Wow, another take on what could easily be considered a "pretzel loop"! To do it flying all you have to do is imagine the track in the approach and exit to te pretzel inverted. It'd work just fine. That's also very close to my inital description except I had the train leaving in the same direction it cam from, while Mamoosh (still the one I think is correct) has it entering from the side and leaving the opposite side.

3 totally different inversions that could all be considered "pretzel loops" - so where's our coaster designing gigs? :)

>retzel loop?  How about this one: A href="http://www.jin.ne.jp/okamotos/eg/main/01a.htm">http://www.jin.ne.jp/okamotos/eg/main/01a.htm/A>/>
>Looks like what you guys came up with!/>
>U>FONT color=#800080>A href="http://club.coasterbuzz.com/forums/null">/A>/U> />
>U>FONT color=#0000ff>/U>A href="http://www.jin.ne.jp/okamotos/eg/main/01a.ht">/A> />
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- eabody

Oh man! How did I forget about Moonsault Scramble!? Good pic, Peabody! That's exactly the element I had in mind. I got so wrapped up in trying to explain it that I totally forget it exists!

Still have to go with Mamoosh on this one. Make the approach and exit to the element parallel to the element instead of perpendcular and I think you have B&M's version.

Why hasn't anyone posted since december 4th (is this forum closed?) btw does anyone know if superman will be launched? Also they said it was gonna be a world first type of pretzel loop, the moonsault has come and gone already.(where was that ride at?) I have no idea of what its gonna look like but i like the way Daniel 74 designed his no limits pretzel loop, i'd like to see that somewhere.

It won't be launched.  Someone got that idea because they saw advancing motors on the pictures of the track.  These only move the train through the reduction brake/transfer/loading areas.  If you look closer you'll see brakes between each set of wheels.