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I just want to ride as many coasters as posible
Prototypes are have a different name for a reason. If they were expected to work perfectly the first time, they'd call them production models. They're purely for testing. Sure, these designs are choppy and unreliable for the first year, but after that (with the exception of the Deja Vus - those have been around more than a year right?) they work well, the way they were intended. These rides are getting to be more and more complex and like with any system, the more you add to it, the more can go wrong. B&M is a great company, I love ther coasters, but their track is just not that innovative. Their trains are amazing, but their tracks don't have elevator lifts, don't have backwards lifts, don't have vertical lifts, dont have LIM or hydraulic launches, etc. The reason B&Ms don't fail half as much is they are built to be as fun and exciting and thrilling as they can be with as little complexity as possible. I think that (if the rumors are true) the next Xcelerator will work fine - maybe a few hiccups in the first few weeks, but after that, work like a charm. The next try at a Deja Vu will be a lot better - the concept is amazing, I'm dying to ride one if they were reliable enough to spend the money on a trip. These rides have elements in them that any civil project would consider insane. It's just like any other situation in life - if its parts are simple, the operation is simple. If the parts are complex, you have a 50/50 shot of something totally insane and innovative and a hunk of junk that people bash on message boards.
Sorry, but I don't see any B&M that I would travel many miles to ride (unless my homepark has a mile long midway)
But I see many by:
S&S- Hypersonic
Intamin- Volcano, The Force, Superman (The Escape, Ultimate Escape)
Arrow- X, Magnum,
Premier- Flight of Fear
CCI- The Holiday World Twins, Villain, Lost Coaster, etc.
But for B&M, at the most, the rides worth going to would be Knight Flight or Nitro.
But that is not to say what are good or bad rides, I will always ride that B&M across the midway, but for some I will ride the coaster next door first.
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Off with the trims!
My fellow Americans; Let's Roll!
Woodencoaster.com
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Its not THE Shivering Timbers, its just Shivering Timbers. And its pronounced Michigan's Adventure.
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http://www.houstonthrills.com - New AstroWorld Video up!
Im sorry, Everything of Intamins I have ridden has been better than any B&M IMHO. Yes B&M takes a existing design and perfects it. Then you ride that same element in the same way on almost every coaster they build weather its sitdown, standup or floorless. I do give them super high marks on their inverts though and truthfully prefer the straight plain sitdown versions like Hulk and Kumba over any of the floorless, Speed or standup versions.
Chuck, who dosn't dislike B&M at all and thinks they are a good quality addition to any park.
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Charles Nungester
Lesourdsville Lake, The great American amusement park opens the season June 6th Thurs-Sun every week. Park phone is (513)539-2193
Oh, one other thing, Don't you think it was inovative of Intamin to hire B&M in the first place? Only afterward did they go out on their own. As did Dana Morgan, Mike Boodley and several other manufactures.
When only a handfull of coasters are built in a country, You can bet that the compitetion is fierce. I truthfully can't blame a park for going out and looking at the latest invoation in thrills. (X, Xcellerator, Deja Vu ect.)
Me, I am happy with a good wooden coaster, Give me one, Give me ten! They will all provide different rides even if they are clones and for me still provide the most fun and comeback and ride me factor of any steel coaster for me.
I also have a picture here claiming a date of 1956 with a steel coaster on tubular track in Paris France. The drive wheels though apear to run on a singluar top of a triangular track with the side wheels on the two wide sections. I guess Arrow may have been the first to use two rail tubular steel track but not the first to use tubular track.
Chuck, who dose not dislike steel coasters at all and is not bashing them, Just trying to give a point of view.
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Charles Nungester
Lesourdsville Lake, The great American amusement park opens the season June 6th Thurs-Sun every week. Park phone is (513)539-2193
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Its not THE Shivering Timbers, its just Shivering Timbers. And its pronounced Michigan's Adventure.
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Fierce Pancake said:
People buy Intamin because the rides are less expensive than something comparable from B&M. They're also popular when they work.
In the case of B&M, you get what you pay for. If you can afford the cadillac of rollercoasters you'll get a nice ride you can rely on. If you don't have that kind of money or want something more radical, there are other ride manufacturers.
Vekoma, S&S, and Arrow were given faith and the opportunity to deliver, but they have not been able to meet expectations. Their innovation is commendable, but if it doesn't work what good is it?
B&M have really set a good example. They build rides that satisfy parks and guests, that's more important than building something unique. That's why they are successful and not bankrupt.
This is the point of view I also hold. Being "innovative" is all well and good, but being innovative AND reliable would be even better.
If I, as a park owner, had to choose between a coaster manufacturer that was known more for innovation and another that was known more for reliability, I think I'd err on the side of caution and go with the more reliable company. I think a ride that's a little less "remarkable" but that runs consistantly will be a much better crowd-pleaser than a new-fangled, innovative modern sculpture.
You people are classic...I just love the argument: "All B&M did was take existing idea's and tweak/perfect them". Outside of the Russians of many, many years ago with their ice slides, that is what every roller coaster "proto-type" is....it is tweaking the existing idea of a roller coaster.
You could take that argument against B&M and apply it "X". All Arrow did was take the seats and put them on the sides and rotate them....blah, blah, blah.
All Vekoma did was put passengers in the modified lay-down position...blah, blah, blah
Too say that B&M isn't innovative is ludicrous. The floorless design may not appear to be that innovative, but they had to create a new station and loading/unloading system that could accomodate a floorless train. I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty innovative to me. They did a similar thing with the inverted loading system.
To say that the B&M flyer is an improvement on an already existing idea has already been disputed above. (the argument that both companies were in R&D stages at the same time, so neither company was improving on the others idea...B&M just took a little longer to put out a better product)
And if you still truly think that B&M just took existing ideas and perfecting them, then you need to realize that, in order to perfect and existing idea, you need to do something innovative.
It seems to me as though people are confusing the concept of innovation with the idea that the truly innovative come up with the latest/greatest thrill. Just because their innovations don't push the thrill envelope, it doesn't mean they aren't being innovative.
"If you aren't making mistakes, you aren't doing enough!" ...LMAO...that's one of the dumbest things that I have ever heard. I am sure the guys at Arrow must be so proud the they did "enough".
For those who have a hard time finding a B&M to plan a trip around...Let me rattle off a "few":
Kumba, Incredible Hulk, Mantis, Riddlers Revenge, Georgia Scorcher, Superman:Krypton Coaster, Batman:Dark Knight, Batman:Knight Flight, Kraken, Medusa, Oblivion, G5, Apollo's Chariot, Nitro, Nemesis, Montu, Alpengeist, Dueling Dragons, Air, Superman:Ultimate Flight.
Those are all good candidates. The combo of Montu, Kumba, Dueling Dragons, Hulk, and Kraken makes a trip to Florida one of the best options around IMO. And on my limited budget, I am considering a trip across the pond just to do Nemesis and Oblivion(although there are other coasters there that I want to do, Nemesis would be the main reason for the trip.) You may not like all the coasters on that list, but many people consider those as some of the best coasters out there.
Now, when you consider that B&M has been in existence for just over 10 years, I think their list of accomplishments is extremely impressive. It takes a lot of time and a lot of money to come up with new coaster ideas. I think some of you need to give the "baby" of the coaster manufacturing world a little more credit.
I am not saying that B&M is the king of coaster creations (I'm not even sure that they are my favorite coaster manufacturer)...I just think some of you are under-estimating their accomplishments.
Happy Coastering!
Sean
--who has just as many Intamins (3) in his top 10 as B&M's (and that will probably change next week as I get my first ride on S:RoS at SFNE)--
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*** This post was edited by freakylick on 6/28/2002. ***
Not only would I plan a trip around B&M's coasters, I've done it twice (Hulk/DD/Kumba/Montu, and Alpie/AC). I have also seen several people on this site plan trips to go to SFoG to ride S:UF and the other B&M's at that park.
What some of you fail to realize is that your average parkgoer has no clue about Intamin, B&M, Vekoma, etc. They just know if they like a ride or not, which is where I think that many of the "GP" have an advantage over enthusiasts-they have no pre-conceived notion about rides. If you just appreciate each ride for itself, then you don't have to worry about being a fanboy/girl of any particular company.
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Proud CB club member
I think if you took every enthusiast in this forum and gave them a few years to think about ideas we would come up with rides just as innovative as any manufacturer has to date. The only difference is that they have to figure out how to make them work. It really isn't too hard to think of a concept.
If you can imagine it you can probably build it. Give me a week and I can come up with many ideas that are very cool. Getting them to work considering how the body reacts to forces on a coaster is a different story.
Everyone says Intimin is so innovative, but really, what have they done?
Launched inverted-I would have to say that the inverted is more innovative than that. They just added something on to B&M
Hydrolic launched coaster-Just another way to launch a ride. There are already tons of ways to do that.
First coaster to break 100mph-Somebody had to do it.
Elevator lifts system-While they are completely different, IMO a floorless would be just as hard to design as a cable lift.
My Point is that pretty much all of Intimin stuff is just like B&M. They "Perfect" other designs. B&M isnt the only one.
*** This post was edited by Magnum XL-200 on 6/28/2002. ***
Laughing in their mansions? They're engineers, not rock stars. That and I'm fairly certain that they're not a couple of geeky megalomaniacs reading sites like this either.
I figured someone would say this eventually so let me just clear it up. The title of this thread was just kind of parody off all the problems going wrong with the other rides. While I don't know him personally, I did meet Mr. Mabillard at the opening of SUF and got to talk with him for a short while. In no way did he seem like a guy that would laugh at another company, he was more worried about hearing criticism about their rides.
And what is this about not planning trips around B&M's? Just like Mark W. Baruth I've planned trips around Hulk/DD, Montu/Kumba, Aplengeist/Apollo's Chariot, Nitro, Medusa (west), and I currently have one planned for Superman Krypton Coaster. I also have held off going to SFNE because I was worried Superman would be down, but atleast if it is down the park now has an awesome B&M floorless to do. And come to think of it, I've only planned one trip around an Intamin, Millennium Force.
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"This time I think ... I think it's ... it's going to work!" - Dr.Bruce Banner
*** This post was edited by IOArules on 6/28/2002. ***
This is a really silly topic. From the original post I picture Mr. Bolliger and Mr. Mabillard sitting in a darkened room with a roaring fire. Walter can be seen crouched over a steaming bubbling cauldron while Claude shuffles through a spell book. In front of them is a model – it’s a cursed Voodoo version of X. They both have evil smirks on their faces as Claude proceeds to tear the seats of the model. They laugh maniacally. Drool freely pours from their mouths. MUHAHAHAHAHA!
I mean, seriously people, B&M aren’t even in the launched or shuttle coaster business – so Déjà vu and Xcelerator will not even have an impact on their business.
I would like to agree here that what everyone considers and inovative may not be.
Anton built a swinging suspended in the mid/late 70's that toured the german fairs. was this the first? Maybe, maybe not but The Bat still gets the credit? Why?
X the first 4 rail coaster, wrong! I got pictures of a what was basically a ferriswheel rollercoaster built durring the early 1900s using its third and fourth rail to control the rotation. Was that even the first?
The first tubular rail steel coaster was not disneys or arrows but gets credit for it, Why? Probably because it was the first of it's type simular to todays instilations. A ride built in 1956 had what looks like Intamin triangular track with the car riding over the center of the triangle and not the double rail portion.
I myself came up with the concept of taking a Arrow suspended style and having you lay over forward facing the ground. I was not able to build a prototype or even fund such of a project, But now we have two different versions of a flying coaster. Not quite the same as the swinging version but close none the less.
Rideman mentioned some years back mentioned a padded lapbar that rest in the lap of riders for looping coasters. SOB comes out and then Premier starts using them on all their coasters basically. Still Anton/Intamin used lapbars in the first place but I am still unsure about them being enough to hold you if the ride were to stop in a inverted possition.
All I am saying is what you think is inovative might not be exactly what it apears to be. B&M built the first two standups for Intamin and thus their coaster company was born from that.
Chuck
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Charles Nungester
Lesourdsville Lake, The great American amusement park opens the season June 6th Thurs-Sun every week. Park phone is (513)539-2193
Another invotavie thing B&M does that goes unmentioned are their awesome layouts. Look at Batman: The Dark Knight. Every single inversion is interlocked with another part of the ride. Compare that to Xcelerator which is essentially one hill. Or what about Montu as it curves in and out of the land for nearly the entire ride compared to something like Volcano The Blast Coaster which is just a bunch of barrel rolls taken at a slow speed. I'm not going to say anything bad about MF because this is Cbuzz and I've done a thread about negative stuff at CP, but come on, MF's layout isn't breathtaking, they could've atleast thrown in a few of those small bunny hops in between the overbanks on the island.
Intamin does have a few cool layouts, all the S:ROS's and their invert Tornado, but when compared to layous like Alpengeist, Raging Bull, Nitro, Riddlers Revenge, Batman the Ride, Superman Krypton Coaster, Batman Knight Flight, Top Gun The Jet Coaster, Kumba, Talon, Mantis, Superman Ultimate Flight, Nemesis, and Dueling Dragons the other companies layouts are nothing special. And thats another thing, when is the last time another company made an elaborate timing and weighing system so their dueling coaster would always duel at the correct times? Howbout never.
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"This time I think ... I think it's ... it's going to work!" - Dr.Bruce Banner
Kind of baffling to fault B&M for using the same style track on all their rides. This is one of their STRENGTHS. They found something that worked and have stuck to it. From the ride experience to the maintenance aspects, having one product that works really well is an advantage. If something breaks down on a B&M coaster, they can get you the replacement parts OVERNIGHT - I was told this directly from one of SeaWorld's maintenance directors. He had nothing but praise for B&M's back-end operations compared to the more problematic Morgan coaster on the other side of the park. In the big picture you will see that B&M rides suffer less downtime than others. I have personally never been to a park where I wasn't able to ride their B&M, though I have been to plenty that had broken Arrow, Vekoma, and Intamin rides on my day of visit. Sure they do sometimes go down like anything else, but they are less hassle for park staff, have very high capacity, and generally offer smooth and thrilling rides for the park patrons.
Superman: Ride of Steel may be an enthusiast's favorite steel coaster, but have you ever seen chain's breaking and trains crashing and guests being EJECTED from B&M rides? B&M offers a higher quality product that the industry has a lot of respect for.
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