B&M must think this is funny.

I would imagine Mr. Bolliger and Mr. Mabillard are probably sitting in their mansions right now laughing at their fellow employer and their other competitors. Over the last two years all of their competitors have made some pretty huge mistakes that could have possibly ruined the future for them.

Lets use Intamin and Xcelerator as an example. The ride is delayed almost an entire month. Then it has about the worst possible breakdown that could happen. Summer is going to be halfway over by the time this thing is open again. Knott's and Cedar Fair can't be very happy with Intamin right now; CF put all the Perilous Plunge delays (way before the death) aside and went back to Intamin for Xcel, and Intamin once again drops the ball. But Intamin isn't in danger of going bankrupt because coasters isn't all they do. If that was the case they would've been long gone after Superman the Escape and Volcano.

Then there is Arrow. Well they looked like they were on top of things, with their awesome new 4D concept and the long talked about Arrowbatics finally getting attention again. That was unitl they screwd up practically the only ride they had been working on for an entire decade. Arrow is pretty much gone, I sure hope they can recover, but I don't see any more 4d's coming in the near future. Nor do I see any other rides from them coming.

Of course there is also Vekoma. Six Flags kept faith in them, even with all the valleying problems of their boomerang coasters. Then Vekoma decided to... well I really don't know what they decided to do. They sold three giant inverted boomerangs to Six Flags which quite possibly were the three worst designed rides of all time. The trains underwent numerous modifications so that the riders wouldn't be able to touch the track and several other modifications were made to the rest of the ride. The sad thing, the only one that is open consistetly to this day is SFMM's. Six Flags confidence level in Vekoma is at about zero right now.

And lets not forget about S&S. I know for a fact PKD and the whole Paramount organazation was pissed off at S&S because my dad and me talked with multiple supervisors about the ride in one long conversation on one of the two days we went to PKD to ride the thing. The guys were even nice enough to understand our situation coming up from GA to ride it and they gave us free ticket refunds in dollars because we had already purchased Paramount season passes. But thats beside the point, S&S couldn't do the job and weren't even trusted enough to fix the ride. So PKD hired a bunch of old S&S employees at Interactive rides to try their hand at fixing it. For some reason, I don't think S&S will be doing coasters anymore, and if they do, it won't be a threat to any of the other companies. Anyone know how Dodonpa is running?

To this day I can't think of B&M ever having gone through any of these problems like these other companies have. I can't say they never had problems because I don't know what happened when the first Batman opened or Iron Wolf, I wasn't an enthusiast back then. And please no one mention Air. A single lifting piece in one of the stations broke. It only kept the ride down for half a day. The only coaster companies that can hold B&M back in their slow but steady domination of the industy are Premeir and Setpoint. I can only imagine that in 2003 and 2004 we will see an even larger emergence of B&M rides. Lets just hope B&M doesn't get greedy and raise their prices so much that only huge SFMM/CP/IOA type parks can afford them.

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"This time I think ... I think it's ... it's going to work!" - Dr.Bruce Banner

*** This post was edited by IOArules on 6/28/2002. ***

B&M isn't perfect, and as we know, they are new(er) onto the scene. Don't get me wrong I love B&M, but they've been around since when? 1991? Arrow has been here since the 1950's. Lets just wait 30-40 years and see where B&M stands...

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Planned parks: Astroland, Knoebel's, Hersheypark, SFNE, SFGadv,SFGam,CP,PKI,PKD,PCW,HW,Indiana Beach,SFWOA,SFKK,SFDL,SFSTL,Lakemont,DelGrosso's... Need I say more?

Shouldn't the other comapanies be better and more reliable than B&M then? If they've been around longer they should have more experience designing and opening rides than a newer company. Thats just the way I see it.

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"This time I think ... I think it's ... it's going to work!" - Dr.Bruce Banner

Yes, but how innovative has B&M been? Don't get me wrong, I love their rides, but none of them have really been breakthrough. Lets look at their most 'innovative creations.

Floorless-While may give a different sensation, all it really is is bassically taking the floor out of a regular car and raising the seating. Different ride experience, but nothing that would cause a whole lot of mechanical problems.

Dive Machines-once again, bassically changing cars and tweaking the track. Cool Sensation, nothing too difficult mechanically.

Flying-Jusst an improvement upon an already established idea. Sure it works better, but they had time to see what not to do.

Inverted-This is the one place where they were innovative. While bassically improving upon Arrow's suspended, they did make it go upside down. Have to give them props for this one.

Now lets look at the other companies.

Vekoma-One of the first shuttle coasters to do multiple inversions, first inverted with verticle lift hills, and first operating tilt coaster.

Intamin-First hydrolic (sp?) launched coaster, first launched inverted coasters, first to break 100mph, first to use magnetic brakes.

S&S-This was their first step into the coaster world, give them time, and they will improve. While I do not know how well Dodompa is running, I certainly haven't heard anything bad about it.

Arrow-Where would we be withought Arrow? First to use tubular steel, first to make coasters with inversions, first hyper coaster, and held numerous height and inversion records until other companines improved. And the 4D. Quite possibly the most radical coaster concept since the inversion. Something that is this radical is bound to have a rocky start. Plus you can't forget the rushing anmd pressure put on them by Gary Story to get the coaster done. I gove massive props to Arrow and hope to see them recover.

In conclusion, I am in no way saying B&M is a bad company. I love their rides, as I love almost every other coaster. But they have not come up with anyting near as radical as other companies have. In response to your title, it doesn't seem that B&M has been laughing their a***s off. It seems to me like they have just been taking notes.

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"Standing in line to see the show tonight and there's a light on, heavy glow, by the way I tried to say I'd be there."-The Red Hot Chili Peppers

----- laughed at B&M while AIR say half-lifted in the station! B&M isnt perfect. Nor are they intense.

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Women was god's second mistake.

I'm sure they were just hysterical when AIR was having problems. It happens to every company, B&M isn't immune to these things. Besides, the rides that were delayed were far more innovative than anything B&M has ever done (as much as I love their rides, that much is true).

Besides, Xcelerator is open again. Not a big deal.

That is true to a certain extent IOArules. I think B&M makes the best coasters but they do have their problems. Having Nitro in my home park, I haven't had one experience at the park when Nitro didn't shut down at the top, have restaint problem, or need new brakes. On Nitro's first year in operation, it had a station brake failure!
Also, If you look at B&M's history, they never really venture in the field of NEW coasters ideas. They went from: Sit down to Stand up to Inverted to Veritcal to Floorless. Not saying the Invert isn't a big move but it's just a sitdown upsidedown. Arrow, Vekoma, Intamin and other companies took a big bite they couldn't chew. I have to give them credit on that cause they opened new doors in the world of designing coasters.

With that in mind; you can kind of say B&M are copy cats with better tech.. They made Sitdowns, Stand ups, Verticals better. The floorless is a sitdown with better trains, and Inverts are suspended coasters with inversions. You can kind of say their the MTV of Roller Coaster. Making the old or odd - cool and fun.

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Mustang you bet me to the point. You must have posted it while I was typing. Also I forgot the flying.

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RESIDENT EVIL: BIOHAZARD! Scaring up some HELL only on the NINTENDO GAMECUBE!!!!!
Explains why i'm up at 4am in the morning. Too scaried to sleep!

If B&M bring out the rolling coaster trains, They might be known as inovative.

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RESIDENT EVIL: BIOHAZARD! Scaring up some HELL only on the NINTENDO GAMECUBE!!!!!
Explains why i'm up at 4am in the morning. Too scaried to sleep!

While B&M haven't innovated quite as much as the other companies that are all facing hard times right now, they have made sure of one thing: their rides work, on time, the first time. When a park buys a B&M they know they are making a sound investment that will work reliably (provided there is proper maintenence) for years. The other companies who are so quick to rush to the market with a product that isn't ready should sit back and take a few notes as to which rides are closed right now, and which are humming along nicely.

I'm most saddened that Arrow is going through this. They have long been one of my favorite companies for rides, and I hope things work out so that they can continue to bring their unique ideas to the market, and so they can perfect the trains of the 4th Demensional coaster to survive the beating the ride throws at them. Vekoma has made it's own grave by producing many rough rides that don't age well, and by building not one, but 3 prototypes that didn't work well, and valley in chilling weather less than 65 degrees. Intamin has lofty ambitions for their designs, but after so many prototypes don't work right for a year or more, why do parks keep going back?

-Ride_Op

once again, xcelerator is back in action. it hasn't had anymore back to back mis launches and should be trouble free for quite a while. After all there's no chain to break. it's doing just fine for a prototype. better than X. better than deja vu, better than AIR.

One thing i have to disagree with is the whole B&M having time to improve upon vekoma flyers. Its not like there was a whole lot of time in between Stealths opening and the finished plans of B&M's flying, If any at all. Theie version is just a better way of making a prone coaster, and thats basically all there is to it.

People buy Intamin because the rides are less expensive than something comparable from B&M. They're also popular when they work.

In the case of B&M, you get what you pay for. If you can afford the cadillac of rollercoasters you'll get a nice ride you can rely on. If you don't have that kind of money or want something more radical, there are other ride manufacturers.

Vekoma, S&S, and Arrow were given faith and the opportunity to deliver, but they have not been able to meet expectations. Their innovation is commendable, but if it doesn't work what good is it?

B&M have really set a good example. They build rides that satisfy parks and guests, that's more important than building something unique. That's why they are successful and not bankrupt.

A think a qoute sums this up:

"If you aren't making mistakes, you aren't doing enough!"

Give them time and some seasons and they will have something the industry can LEARN from. That is where this goes when something fails.

I honestly don't know how people can claim B&M's rides aren't innovative. The inverted coaster, the dive machine, and the B&M flyer (in development as long as Vekoma's ride) are all radical departures from anything that existed at the time. To me, setting a height or speed record isn't anything innovative unless some sort of new technology is used. B&M gets bashed a lot on these boards and I just don't get it. It almost seems like some sort of jealousy - a "root for the underdog" type of mindset which is sometimes more than a little ridiculous.

Open your eyes.

-Nate

Excuse me if you feel I'm being naive but innovative, sminnovative. Let me first say that I love everything that Intamin, Arrow and S&S has done. I'll just thank Verkoma for Deja Vu and probably for first flyers. I agree with DDrok11 and Fierce. I mean just because your making an innovative ride ride doesn't mean you can't be reliable. Couldn't Arrow have taken some more time on the trains for X? Did the fist launched shuttle loops suffer many problems? Just because it's on my side I'm guessing they didn't have many because Schwarzkopf was reliable when it came to that ride. was I know they are plauged by finacial problems but that's not the point. What about Verkoma. Is the vert. lift not an improvement on an already establised idea called the cable lift? Elevators themeselves go verticaly up and down do they not? Too much innovation for my tatse lol. Don't contridict yourself Mustang. Sorry I just wanted to feel big.

I love B&M because they take the time to work out problems before just throwing them out there. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the flying coaster a B&M idea? Instead of just rushing the idea out they took their time because they knew they had to work out aspects. Albeit I've never ridden a flying coaster but the Beemer is smoother (given) and the restraints/loading time is about ten times better.

Excuse me nitro, but you say that like it's that simple. "Inverts are suspended coasters with inversions" I could say Bommerangs are just a backwards lift. XLC's are just space shots layed down. TOGO stand-ups were just different trains. Hell back to mustang I could say early loopers were just different trains with "tweaked tracks" I mean give them some freakin credit. Ok my stupid rant is over. Go on with your lives and don't eat the yellow snow. It any of this makes no sense to you or is just false, bash me!

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"Excitement, Adventure. A Jedi Craves Not These Things."

*** This post was edited by lbwmobster on 6/28/2002. ***

Yup. B&M = Lexus/Mercedes/BMW/Cadillac of roller coasters.

Now, yah, I'm pretty sure the flying coaster was B&M's idea...

And on the fact that all B&M does is change trains and not track, Vekoma's tilt coaster track looks a lot like their invert track, their invert track looks a lot like their normal track... Let's see. VEKOMA'S TRACK LOOKS A LOT LIKE ARROW'S TRACK. Arrow is really the only company with different styles of track. (Wild Mouse, 4th Dimension, Mine Train) Vekoma also has mine train. That's really it though.

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Why do they report power outages on TV?

Laughing in their mansions? They're engineers, not rock stars. That and I'm fairly certain that they're not a couple of geeky megalomaniacs reading sites like this either.

While I love B&M, have they taken a chance on anything at all in the last ten years? I mean really, have they built anything innovative or different? Everything they've done uses the same track type and essentially the same bogey. The only real alteration in anything they've done is the seat lifting system on the flyers, and even that is pretty simple (just ask owners of Vekoma's model).

People sure do speculate about the weirdest things.

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Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com, Sillynonsense.com
"We used to hate people, now we just make fun of them. It's more effective that way." - KMFDM, "Dogma"

I don't understand. Why would you even think they would lower themselves to thinking about such things? B&M are people, they know where they came from, people like this do not sit around and wait to see the others of their field "fail". It's ridiculous!

"Now, yah, I'm pretty sure the flying coaster was B&M's idea..." And I'm pretty sure that George Lucas invented the movie.

Intamin has had problems with their prototypes, but I think the S:TE, S:UE, Volcano, and Millennium Force look like they are all worth it (I've only been on Volcano). And don't forget Acrophobia, that thing looks amazing (too bad PKD's looks like a sit down version, but it will still be great).

Vekoma is great - They produce a similar product for less money. Some designs like the Flying Dutchman and Giant Inverted Boomerang give great rides. The Flying Dutchman are running better than ever and I hope that they will find a solution for Deja Vu also.

I think Hypersonic is a great rush, and I hear that Dodonpa is running very well. XLC is supposed to get entirely new trains next year to help. Moreover, there are iffy reports of purple thrust air track outside of the S&S plant in Utah. With Intamin's hydrolic launch and drop towers and Vertigo's collapse, I think these guys are in the most trouble. They are running out of places to put in towers. But I have enjoyed every ride they have ever produced.

As for Arow, I like their old rides and I think everyone on the east coast is hoping a 4D makes its way over here soon. Hopefully X will begin running again soon (it is testing after all). Did anyone really expect this revolutionary idea not to have problems?

Don't overestimate breakdowns in prototypes. Yes X was late, but if they work out the problems hopefully we can see more 4D's. Same goes for Intamin launchers, Flying coasters, etc. Moreover, most of the prototypes seem like bargains (14 mill for X, 12 mill for Xcelerator, I've heard as low as 5 mill for Hypersonic since they just modified the prototype and trucked it cross country).

B&M produces quality rides. However, besides S:UF their rides really don't pronounce themselves like X, Xcelerator, Deja Vu, XLC or others. The other companies are producing more innovative, more marketable rides at a cheaper price IMO.

PS. I have been told that the original SFGam Batman also had growing pains. What if they gave up on the invert?