B&M: NEW LAYOUT??

Friday, March 7, 2003 7:03 AM
I'm three years ahead of you, Gator, and I can still take inversions. I have noticed, however, that when my Dad reached his mid-60's he started having troubles with inversions and now he avoids them completely. So hopefully we'll both have another 30 years to go before we have to watch what we ride ;)

Moosh

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"Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx

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Friday, March 7, 2003 7:13 AM
Responding to several things here:

Woody said


"Inverted: Besides B:TR's everywhere, where is there another inverted clone or with major similarities? Great Bear, Raptor, Alpengeist, Montu, Dueling Dragons?? Can't find one in that group. Even their inversion order's are completely different. "

I mostly agree with this statement, but I would be remiss if I did not mention that Montu and Top Gun:The Jet Coaster have virtually identical layouts. TG:TJC is lacking the second vertical loop however.

DWeaver said:


"Bottom line, most enthusiasts are tired of inversions, no matter which order you place them in. "

This I *do* have to disagree with, for two reasons. ONE, we'd have to define "enthusiast". There are many people who go to amusement parks and ride coaster and by the 'denotation' *are* enthusiasts. Those people are going to parks like SFGAdv and are filling the lines for Medus just as fast as they fill the lines for NITRO. However, I believe that you are using the narrow 'connotation' of enthusiast meaning people on these boards and their ilk. But even then, I will not say *they* are tired of inversions.....I would argue that they never liked them in the first place.

These enthusiasts who would be most likely to to proclaim that they were "tired" of inversions are the same ones who would be likely to identify themselves as "airtime whores" and "woodie freaks/snobs". For them, loopers were never more than a casusal diversion anyway. They were never *into* them enough to now be *tired*.

in the same vein rollergator offered:


"For about 25 years, inversions were the rage. They developed a vocabulary, specifically confusing by...design... Now, it seems that non-inverting coasters have really dominating the rankings (which granted, must be taken with more than one grain of salt). "

But what is this really telling us? I mean, that I'm not sure that there *ever* was a time when looping coasters took a prominant role. I've only been following "rankings" for a little while, but I invite someone to state that loopers were the dominant force among "enthusiasts" (narrow definition).

So I do not believe that looper have "fallen from grace". On the contray, they were never really "en vouge" in the first place among so-called enthusiasts.

Then Dweaver added


"By a show of hands, how many people would object to an out an back Shivering Timber like ride in *every* single park you visit? How many would object to an Intamin hyper obscenly similar to SFNE's Superman in every park you visit. My guess is(if we're being honest), not many.

I'd be lying if I said I didnt want a Timbers near me, but I believe that the same could be said about a convoluted layout like Lightning Racer or a loopy layout like Thriller/(Taz's) Texas Tornado/Zonga. The thing is, those are good rides. I'd bet the number of hands would be significantly different if you had proffered Judge Roy Scream and Steel Force instead. Both non-looping "airtime" rides, but not as widely acclaimed as "great".

But I'm different anyway as I feel airtime (especially of the NON-ejector form) is severely overrated.
lata, jeremy
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"I will break away, I'll find myself today"

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Friday, March 7, 2003 8:02 AM
Couple points: Raptor does have a clone, even if mirrored (not unlike 'Playa's shades, LOL).

"Floater" airtime is also overrated IMO.

But then again, a standard vertical loop is THE inversion that *works* for me, anyway...;)

edit: it would appear jeremy has a point, that even though loopers may have become the park choices, and the GP seemed to eat them up, they never really were THE choice for *enthusiasts*...witness Maggie's long stay at/near the top...


*** This post was edited by rollergator 3/7/2003 1:05:05 PM ***

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Friday, March 7, 2003 8:21 AM
The inversion that *works* for me is the Zero-G roll.

FYI, SFMM is the "loopiest" park with riders experiencing 36 inversions:

Viper [7], Scream [7], Riddler [6], Deja Vu [6], Batman [5], X [4], and Revolution [1].

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"Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx

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Friday, March 7, 2003 8:24 AM
Sort of back on topic....

There are only two floorless coasters I've been on - B:KF and Medusa West. I found Medusa West quite an enjoyable coaster, but the zero-G roll is the only stand out inversion on the whole ride.

Though I enjoy B:KF immensely, I still wish it had the zero-G somehow placed in the layout.

X Factor

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Friday, March 7, 2003 8:41 AM
What I like about B:KF is the speed and pacing. The high speed turn after the vertical loop takes my breath away. I like the way it doesn't immediately go into another high element, redusing the speed. Still my #1 floorless and over all one of my favorite coasters, wood or steel.

Looping coasters were hot in the early 90's, but were never big with so-called "purists". That said, the point I was trying to make is that hypercoasters and wood coasters are often "conveniently" left out when complaints are made about similarities in design. Even Steel Force was once a staple on many top 10 lists. Was it ever that great of a ride?

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"Run Betty! The giant chicken's sticking to the pan"!

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Friday, March 7, 2003 9:10 AM

rollergator said:

But then again, a standard vertical loop is THE inversion that *works* for me, anyway...;)


Yeah, plain old vertical loops are the best. I love the huge loops that start off so many great B&Ms (Kraken, Mantis, Medusa, most inverts etc), and the smaller and more intense ones (Top Gun, Nemesis).
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You are about to discover what lies beyond the 5th dimension, beyond the deepest, darkest corner of the imagination in the Tower Of Terror.

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Friday, March 7, 2003 11:54 AM
rollergator said:
Couple points: Raptor does have a clone, even if mirrored (not unlike 'Playa's shades, LOL).

I know Raptor does have one clone: Orochi in Japan, although I don't know if it's mirrored.

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Friday, March 7, 2003 6:00 PM
Well I prefer(sp?) the smaller, more intense loops over the large loops. I have to admit that I like the hang time but extreme Gs just provide more thrills. For example, B:TR has very intense loops which I love but Medusa west has a large loop with extreme hang time. I do think that coasters are more unique if the order of elements is a little different from the normal but it doesn't make the rides better.

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Don't Fight It, Ride It, RAGING BULL!!!!!!- Six Flags Great America

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Friday, March 7, 2003 6:11 PM
Nope, Orochi wasn't mirrored.

Also, Vortex at PGA and Iron Wolf are pretty similar.

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Lake Compounce-So Fresh and So Clean Clean

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Friday, March 7, 2003 8:41 PM

Mamoosh said:
... the Zero-G roll - aka the "Kumbathingy" ...

Just had to acknowledge this one! I finally have a word for my favorite moment in coasterdom ... the one element that is unlike any other I've ever experienced! ;)

But on-subject with what this is from, I don't feel that BKF could have really used a zero-g, in its current layout (taking it as you wished they would have sandwiched a zero-g in there). BKF is all about the big elements and low to the ground speed - neither of which are really good elements (I feel) to put together with a zero-g. Just my opinion.

Plus, no matter how hard they try, I don't think anyone's ever gonna duplicate my baby's Kumbathingy ;)

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"You know we got a good thing goin' and I don't wanna see it end" --Reel Big Fish
-- Brett

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Friday, March 7, 2003 9:14 PM
The *Kumbathingy* is the reason I always do my marathons in the back on the train, that thing whips you around pretty quick....I also love the speed run *and dip* in the trench under the bridge, and the nice tight helix finish....the corkscrews, OTOH, I could probably live without...someday I'll figure out why they're so *poopular*....;) And the next day, I'll figure out why there aren't more Beemer sit-down loopers...

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Dr. Thrill IS my family practitioner
Would you just LOOK at what you've done to CoasterBuzz - you're going to have to clean it up ;)

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Friday, March 7, 2003 10:12 PM
Reading this topic makes me think... how many coasterpark visitors are actually having the chance of seeing more than one B&M clone?
I mean.. Scream and Medusa west e.g. will be quite close together, but apart from that.... isn't asking for custome designed coasters like asking Burger King to have custom designed Burgers in every franchise?
*** This post was edited by superman 3/8/2003 3:18:59 AM ***
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Friday, March 7, 2003 11:31 PM
Iron Wolf and PGA's Vortex are hardly as similar as you insinuate. They both have two inversions, yes, but the rest of the rides are very, very different.

-Nate

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Saturday, March 8, 2003 8:04 AM
I see a big problem people have with inversions are the HUGE OTSRs that their heads are banging into every 5 seconds. I personally don't have a preference over loopers or hypers, but when I can have my arms extended and feel like I'm flying, or have my arms restricted and a huge headache, I'll choose a hyper :). If loopers were a little more "free" MUCH like the new Flight of Fear(s) I think they would gain popularity in the enthusiast community and with the GP. Look at what lap bars did for FoF, The Chiller, and Mr. Freeze......


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"Jessica, you're turning me into a criminal, when all I want to be is a petty thug." -Bart Simpson

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Saturday, March 8, 2003 2:12 PM

coasterdude318 said:
Iron Wolf and PGA's Vortex are hardly as similar as you insinuate. They both have two inversions, yes, but the rest of the rides are very, very different.

-Nate



The only major difference is that Iron Wolf has a figure-8 helix at the end, which is the one element of the Wolf that Vortex does not have.

Both are curving drop-loop-high lateral turn- helix through loop- dive into corkscrew- 180 degree turn-(Iron Wolf then has the figure 8 helix)-brake run
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Lake Compounce-So Fresh and So Clean Clean

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Saturday, March 8, 2003 3:58 PM
Wrong.

Vortex begins with a 90* curving left-hand drop into a vertical loop, followed by a 180* left-hand turnaround, then a 360* helix (again, to the left) through the vertical loop that begins going upward, then drops to the ground at the end.. There's a quick turn to the right to transition into the flatspin (left) then a 180* turnaround, and finally a slow, gradual turn into the brakes.

Iron Wolf is *completely* different. It begins with a 180* left-hand drop into the vertical loop, followed by a 270* (approx) right-hand turnaround, and then a drop that curves approximately 90* to the right. Following this is a 360* upward helix through the vertical loop. There's a *straight* drop (which banks slightly to the right at the bottom), a flatspin to the left, and then a figure-8 finale.

Calling these rides "pretty similar" is like calling Talon and B:TR "pretty similar" because they both begin with a vertical loop. It's ridiculous. Either you haven't ridden them both, or you weren't paying much attention.

-Nate

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Saturday, March 8, 2003 5:51 PM
Dang NAte...I've ridden vortex and all I remember is that it has two inversions:) I find it amazing that some of you guys can describe a ride to the tee. I can't even remember some parts of Medusa, which I have ridden a trillion times. My memory is going...

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Party goin on in the corner.....gotta be California!

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Sunday, March 9, 2003 2:19 PM
Coasterdude, my opinion on them being similar is my opinion. It's the same way I saw Viper and Shockwave as similar. You'll glimpse at them with the grungy old look and say "no, Shockwave's drop, it missin' 30 degrees...and why is Viper all tight and tangled up like Spaghetti-Os...there's a fork in Viper's last dive...and by-golly, why does Shockwave come of the blocks with that nasty transition?!!

It's how I look at them. They have the same elements and in the same order and very similar but not at the point where they can be considered clones.

I posted my opinion because just like both Demons, I knew that Vortex and Iron Wolf were made with intention of buiding a similar rides but Vortex was fitted to the park's setting.

And yes, after living in both Flint and Castro Valley, I have had access to both rides in my lifetime.
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Lake Compounce-So Fresh and So Clean Clean

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Sunday, March 9, 2003 4:00 PM
There is a difference, though: With Viper and Shock Wave, the emphasis is totally on the elements. The transitions are just there so that the various inversions aren't on top of each other. Iron Wolf, at least, spends a lot of it's time on track that isn't particularly useful for getting from the loop to the corkscrew. Plus, it's got track it doesn't need after the corkscrew. This means that emphasis on the whole layout, not just the inversions. So, you can't say that Vortex and IW are similair just the because they both have a loop and a corckscrew the way you can say Shock Wave and Viper are similair because they have the same inversions.

Not to say that they aren't similair, but from the descriptions and photos I've heard and seen, they seem more disimilair than the B&M standard layouts and the triple mega-loopers.

(BTW, the transistion out of the blocks on Shock Wave may not have been the best, but it was always the one "into" the blocks that we called "Dead Man's Curve.")

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