B&M: NEW LAYOUT??
Moosh
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"Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
Woody said
"Inverted: Besides B:TR's everywhere, where is there another inverted clone or with major similarities? Great Bear, Raptor, Alpengeist, Montu, Dueling Dragons?? Can't find one in that group. Even their inversion order's are completely different. "
I mostly agree with this statement, but I would be remiss if I did not mention that Montu and Top Gun:The Jet Coaster have virtually identical layouts. TG:TJC is lacking the second vertical loop however.
DWeaver said:
"Bottom line, most enthusiasts are tired of inversions, no matter which order you place them in. "
This I *do* have to disagree with, for two reasons. ONE, we'd have to define "enthusiast". There are many people who go to amusement parks and ride coaster and by the 'denotation' *are* enthusiasts. Those people are going to parks like SFGAdv and are filling the lines for Medus just as fast as they fill the lines for NITRO. However, I believe that you are using the narrow 'connotation' of enthusiast meaning people on these boards and their ilk. But even then, I will not say *they* are tired of inversions.....I would argue that they never liked them in the first place.
These enthusiasts who would be most likely to to proclaim that they were "tired" of inversions are the same ones who would be likely to identify themselves as "airtime whores" and "woodie freaks/snobs". For them, loopers were never more than a casusal diversion anyway. They were never *into* them enough to now be *tired*.
in the same vein rollergator offered:
"For about 25 years, inversions were the rage. They developed a vocabulary, specifically confusing by...design... Now, it seems that non-inverting coasters have really dominating the rankings (which granted, must be taken with more than one grain of salt). "
But what is this really telling us? I mean, that I'm not sure that there *ever* was a time when looping coasters took a prominant role. I've only been following "rankings" for a little while, but I invite someone to state that loopers were the dominant force among "enthusiasts" (narrow definition).
So I do not believe that looper have "fallen from grace". On the contray, they were never really "en vouge" in the first place among so-called enthusiasts.
Then Dweaver added
"By a show of hands, how many people would object to an out an back Shivering Timber like ride in *every* single park you visit? How many would object to an Intamin hyper obscenly similar to SFNE's Superman in every park you visit. My guess is(if we're being honest), not many.
I'd be lying if I said I didnt want a Timbers near me, but I believe that the same could be said about a convoluted layout like Lightning Racer or a loopy layout like Thriller/(Taz's) Texas Tornado/Zonga. The thing is, those are good rides. I'd bet the number of hands would be significantly different if you had proffered Judge Roy Scream and Steel Force instead. Both non-looping "airtime" rides, but not as widely acclaimed as "great".
But I'm different anyway as I feel airtime (especially of the NON-ejector form) is severely overrated.
lata, jeremy
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"I will break away, I'll find myself today"
"Floater" airtime is also overrated IMO.
But then again, a standard vertical loop is THE inversion that *works* for me, anyway...;)
edit: it would appear jeremy has a point, that even though loopers may have become the park choices, and the GP seemed to eat them up, they never really were THE choice for *enthusiasts*...witness Maggie's long stay at/near the top...
*** This post was edited by rollergator 3/7/2003 1:05:05 PM ***
FYI, SFMM is the "loopiest" park with riders experiencing 36 inversions:
Viper [7], Scream [7], Riddler [6], Deja Vu [6], Batman [5], X [4], and Revolution [1].
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"Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
There are only two floorless coasters I've been on - B:KF and Medusa West. I found Medusa West quite an enjoyable coaster, but the zero-G roll is the only stand out inversion on the whole ride.
Though I enjoy B:KF immensely, I still wish it had the zero-G somehow placed in the layout.
X Factor
Looping coasters were hot in the early 90's, but were never big with so-called "purists". That said, the point I was trying to make is that hypercoasters and wood coasters are often "conveniently" left out when complaints are made about similarities in design. Even Steel Force was once a staple on many top 10 lists. Was it ever that great of a ride?
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"Run Betty! The giant chicken's sticking to the pan"!
rollergator said:But then again, a standard vertical loop is THE inversion that *works* for me, anyway...;)
Yeah, plain old vertical loops are the best. I love the huge loops that start off so many great B&Ms (Kraken, Mantis, Medusa, most inverts etc), and the smaller and more intense ones (Top Gun, Nemesis).
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You are about to discover what lies beyond the 5th dimension, beyond the deepest, darkest corner of the imagination in the Tower Of Terror.
Couple points: Raptor does have a clone, even if mirrored (not unlike 'Playa's shades, LOL).
I know Raptor does have one clone: Orochi in Japan, although I don't know if it's mirrored.
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Don't Fight It, Ride It, RAGING BULL!!!!!!- Six Flags Great America
Also, Vortex at PGA and Iron Wolf are pretty similar.
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Lake Compounce-So Fresh and So Clean Clean
Mamoosh said:
... the Zero-G roll - aka the "Kumbathingy" ...
Just had to acknowledge this one! I finally have a word for my favorite moment in coasterdom ... the one element that is unlike any other I've ever experienced! ;)
But on-subject with what this is from, I don't feel that BKF could have really used a zero-g, in its current layout (taking it as you wished they would have sandwiched a zero-g in there). BKF is all about the big elements and low to the ground speed - neither of which are really good elements (I feel) to put together with a zero-g. Just my opinion.
Plus, no matter how hard they try, I don't think anyone's ever gonna duplicate my baby's Kumbathingy ;)
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"You know we got a good thing goin' and I don't wanna see it end" --Reel Big Fish
-- Brett
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Dr. Thrill IS my family practitioner
Would you just LOOK at what you've done to CoasterBuzz - you're going to have to clean it up ;)
I mean.. Scream and Medusa west e.g. will be quite close together, but apart from that.... isn't asking for custome designed coasters like asking Burger King to have custom designed Burgers in every franchise?
*** This post was edited by superman 3/8/2003 3:18:59 AM ***
-Nate
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"Jessica, you're turning me into a criminal, when all I want to be is a petty thug." -Bart Simpson
coasterdude318 said:
Iron Wolf and PGA's Vortex are hardly as similar as you insinuate. They both have two inversions, yes, but the rest of the rides are very, very different.-Nate
The only major difference is that Iron Wolf has a figure-8 helix at the end, which is the one element of the Wolf that Vortex does not have.
Both are curving drop-loop-high lateral turn- helix through loop- dive into corkscrew- 180 degree turn-(Iron Wolf then has the figure 8 helix)-brake run
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Lake Compounce-So Fresh and So Clean Clean
Vortex begins with a 90* curving left-hand drop into a vertical loop, followed by a 180* left-hand turnaround, then a 360* helix (again, to the left) through the vertical loop that begins going upward, then drops to the ground at the end.. There's a quick turn to the right to transition into the flatspin (left) then a 180* turnaround, and finally a slow, gradual turn into the brakes.
Iron Wolf is *completely* different. It begins with a 180* left-hand drop into the vertical loop, followed by a 270* (approx) right-hand turnaround, and then a drop that curves approximately 90* to the right. Following this is a 360* upward helix through the vertical loop. There's a *straight* drop (which banks slightly to the right at the bottom), a flatspin to the left, and then a figure-8 finale.
Calling these rides "pretty similar" is like calling Talon and B:TR "pretty similar" because they both begin with a vertical loop. It's ridiculous. Either you haven't ridden them both, or you weren't paying much attention.
-Nate
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Party goin on in the corner.....gotta be California!
It's how I look at them. They have the same elements and in the same order and very similar but not at the point where they can be considered clones.
I posted my opinion because just like both Demons, I knew that Vortex and Iron Wolf were made with intention of buiding a similar rides but Vortex was fitted to the park's setting.
And yes, after living in both Flint and Castro Valley, I have had access to both rides in my lifetime.
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Lake Compounce-So Fresh and So Clean Clean
Not to say that they aren't similair, but from the descriptions and photos I've heard and seen, they seem more disimilair than the B&M standard layouts and the triple mega-loopers.
(BTW, the transistion out of the blocks on Shock Wave may not have been the best, but it was always the one "into" the blocks that we called "Dead Man's Curve.")
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I hear America screaming...
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