B&M: NEW LAYOUT??

I feel that the best B&M layouts that I are out there are the standard Inverted design. Riddler, Raging Bull, BKF, Medusa-East. I was not too fond of BDK. Just didn't do anything for me compared to others.

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BMCOASTER

bmcoaster@wi.rr.com

You know, I really can't complain, because I love this topic, but I cannot agree completely with some of you. When you speak of probably the first or second most popular manufacturer of our enthusiast family, this becomes a great topic to debate.

Disagreements: That all Beemers need to change format in their order of inversions. And that most are the same.
Floorless: Besides Medusa's & Scream, I haven't seen a floorless look-alike. B:KF, B:DK, S:KF, Kraken are different in so many ways. (Moosh, I can't agree more about B:KF missing the Zero-G.) (MagForce, That is my fave element of any of them.....overbanked 20 feet off the ground at 65mph....way too intense).
Inverted: Besides B:TR's everywhere, where is there another inverted clone or with major similarities? Great Bear, Raptor, Alpengeist, Montu, Dueling Dragons?? Can't find one in that group. Even their inversion order's are completely different.
Standup: Chang & Mantis. Where is the other clones? Riddler's Revenge, Scorcher and I forgot the other are different.
Sitdown: Kumba, Wildfire, & Hulk are not alike.
Flying: How similar is Air to S:UF?

Honestly Turbo, I realize what you are saying, but can't see it in the proof. Yes, I realize that I haven't ridden all of the coasters provided in our little study, but I have seen plenty of photos that proves my arguement.

I am not becoming argumentative at all, I LOVE this debate... I just can't see what we are debating? Is it the order, or is it the type of inversion? Do we need to find another way to ride upsidedown? Basically, not to sound like a porn site, but whatever is the cheapest thrill.....clone or not, will be the coaster we will be riding based on park capital.

Lastly, the subtle changes in each new Beemer makes travelling to new places wonderful. I mean, do we actually have discussions about Vekoma SLC's? And plan to travel to ride all of them in the SF family?

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There's nothing like a woodie...

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Mamoosh said:
Batman Knight Flight is my least favorite floorless. I find it rather dull ...-

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I thought I was the only one. As far as floorless coasters go, B:KF just doesn't stack up against Kraken, B:DK or Medusa (east).

I understand the economic nature of similar designs and in that sense it's a good choice. But I have to agree that many of these coasters lose their "personality" by being so similar. That's one of the things that originally intrigued me about coasters. You'd hear stories of how you have to get to this park or that park and try (insert coaster name) because it was so great. That coaster "personality" aspect has all but been lost it seems. What's even more interesting is that the various "best coaster" lists and polls usually don't include these similar style rides. It's the one of kind coasters that stand above the rest and in most cases stand the test of time.

It's the classic "art vs money" thing and these parks are businesses first and foremost. Sigh...

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www.coasterimage.com

A great philosopher once said, "More artsy, less fartsy!"....Yeah, I think his name was Homer.....

Well said, Lord. You hit the nail on the head with the coaster polls. The more unique, the longer the coaster sits in the top 20 with stamina, steel or wood.

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There's nothing like a woodie...

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MagnumForce said:
I think this is why I love B:KF so much.It's not just inversions.

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You KNOW I don't enjoy agreeing with Brent...but he's RIGHT on this one. I guess I'm one of *those*...I've gotten MANY more rides on Medusa East, and Kraken, and while the floorless concept does little for me, the LAYOUT of B:KF kicks butt, and has it ALL over the others...IMO. Twisting, turning layouts....Talon, Scorcher, BKF...those are the Beemers that rank highly in the poll that works for me...MINE!

bill, who wonders why the only *compact* Bemmer that's been cloned alot is B:TR...if my park needed an inverting coaster, and "a Talon" was about the same price, it'd be NO contest...

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Dr. Thrill IS my family practitioner
Would you just LOOK at what you've done to CoasterBuzz - you're going to have to clean it up ;)

hymmm....people don't seem to mind the similarities in the Intamin Superman clones, and that too is reflected in the polls. Double standard for airtime-filled, non inverting hypers? Yes I think so.

Bottom line, most enthusiasts are tired of inversions, no matter which order you place them in. And since most parks look to B&M for their loopers, they become the natural scapegoats. I don't know how many times it needs to be said, it's not economics entirely. Most parks are regional, meaning they don't normally expect folks to be traveling from Boston to California just to ride their new coaster. If I'm a park owner, I want what works. Obviously if my competition already has something similar, I want to offere something unique to my region, but I'm not going to fret over what a park 2,000 miles away has. Most of those people will *never* set foot in my park.

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"Oh tell me why, do we build castles in the sky, oh tell me why, all the castles way up high".
*** This post was edited by DWeaver 3/6/2003 5:08:49 PM ***

Add me to the list of "not liking" BKF as much as other floorlesses. I've been on 4, and I'd rank them as follows- Kraken, BDK, Medusa, BKF. I love Kraken for its speed and huge inversions, but also BDK because of the extremely intense rides. Those two are actually almost a tie for my #1.

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Track Record: 164
Favorite Wood: Phoenix at Knoebels
Favorite Steel: Millennium Force at Cedar Point

OK, so I too am forced to wonder....how true IS the statement DWeaver made...are we really *done* with inversions...I think he's definitely got a point, and to a large degree he's right. For about 25 years, inversions were the rage. They developed a vocabulary, specifically confusing by...design...;) Now, it seems that non-inverting coasters have really dominating the rankings (which granted, must be taken with more than one grain of salt).

Not to pick on MarimbaGuy, but I read the post and saw how highly he thought of Kraken and BDK, but also that his SIG, which *might* more accurately reflect his "voting" (if any), has MF as #1...a non-inverting coaster. Personally, for coasters WITH inversions, I'd pick the Beemers (or maybe those jazzy Premiers with the launch doo-hickies now that they don't feature the bangy ear-boxy restraint thingamajigs)...;)

Just thinking...perhaps the *new layouts* in steel are really copies of the *old layouts* in wood...;)

By a show of hands, how many people would object to an out an back Shivering Timber like ride in *every* single park you visit? How many would object to an Intamin hyper obscenly similar to SFNE's Superman in every park you visit. My guess is(if we're being honest), not many. As long as enthusiasts 'arses' are *out* of their seat for most of the ride, you just won't hear the complaints.

Yet inversion filled rides really do need to be *specialized* to get the same respect, cough"X"cough.

Of course I'm generalizing, but for the most part it's true. My old saying still holds true: Show the average enthusiast some bunny hops and lapbars, and all the usual lists of complaints, theming, parking lots and clones, go right out the window. ;)

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"Run Betty! The giant chicken's sticking to the pan"!
*** This post was edited by DWeaver 3/6/2003 8:37:28 PM ***
*** This post was edited by DWeaver 3/6/2003 8:43:53 PM ***

Gator, you're right. I do enjoy hyper/giga coasters a little more than loopers, BUT I have Incredible Hulk ranked 3rd behind MF and S:ROS at SFNE. My Top 10 by the way is split 50/50 between inverting/non inverting. There are certain things I look for in a ride- if it goes upsidown, I like it to be intense but not painful. (See Hulk) If it doesn't, I want speed and curves. (See MF and S:ROS) I'm still divided on which I like better between MF and S:ROS, I think I would have to ride them back to back in order to really decide.
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Track Record: 164
Favorite Wood: Phoenix at Knoebels
Favorite Steel: Millennium Force at Cedar Point

I think it has to do more with the airtime whoridness (is that a word) of your average enthusiast.

Besides the fact that I enjoy wood a hell of a lot more then I enjoy steel which I think is a fairly general rule for enthusiasts.

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Da Poodle

Coming in 2003-The Spawn Of Magnum!

I love airtime, but if you can give me the twisted track like S:ROS, I'll take it. I can get my airtime on Phoenix. ;)

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Track Record: 164
Favorite Wood: Phoenix at Knoebels
Favorite Steel: Millennium Force at Cedar Point

I think you still get airtime on S:ROS@SFNE's twisted hills too from what I was told.

For me, I definitely like a TON of postive g's, and I like my airtime EJECTION-style. Not just some, but a LOT...MF didn't rank up with S:RoS for me, not really even close. Beemer hypers left me wanting something beyond the float, the air was definitely there, but hovering for me isn't the same as being *thrown* into the restraints...and nice TIGHT high-speed helices *never* hurt my feelings. ERT on Goliath was pure bliss....they even opened up the chain for instantaneous re-rides (on the occasion that you had to exit the coaster). Of the coasters WITH inversions, I'm thinking more and more I prefer the inverted seating....but I'll think about that some more and get back to ya....
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Dr. Thrill IS my family practitioner
Would you just LOOK at what you've done to CoasterBuzz - you're going to have to clean it up ;)

Unlike some fanatics, who seem to drool over airtime, I prefer a ride that offers a combination of forces. That's why coasters such as Raven, Legend, Cornball, Bouderdash, SFNE's Superman, and X are my top coasters and Timbers, Millie, and Nitro underwhelmed me greatly.

Moosh

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"Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx

*** This post was edited by Mamoosh 3/7/2003 9:33:42 AM ***

I agree with DWeaver on both posts. I know that I tend to go "not another multi-inversion coaster". Of course that could be because I'm now pushing 40. However, the inversions don't stop me from going on the rides. I marathoned B:KF for an hour on X-flight's media day. As far as airtime, sure, give me speed and bunny hops (though speed and twisting works) anyday.
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Goccvp1

I sure do miss the Idora Wiildcat & Jackrabbit.

Since us *old-timers* are talking about inversions and how we are growing *less fond*, let me tell you what I *do* know from the medical literature. It appears that the tiny hairs indside the air, which regulate balance, etc. grow *stiffer* as we age. This means we are more likely to become disoriented, lose our balance (feel nauseated?) by the rapid changes in orientation and direction. As the population ages, this MAY mean that inversions will gradually become a thing of the past....but hopefully not any time too soon...;)
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Dr. Thrill IS my family practitioner
Would you just LOOK at what you've done to CoasterBuzz - you're going to have to clean it up ;)

Gator sez:

"It appears that the tiny hairs indside the air, which regulate balance..."

The air has hairs?

Moosh - who knows you meant "ear" but thinks your typo is hilarious!

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"Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx

*** This post was edited by Mamoosh 3/7/2003 11:41:17 AM ***

I must have lost my balance while typing, LOL....darn this old age...

bill, only 35...but aging RAPIDLY...is this what they meant by *onset of senility*...;)

LMAO! rollergator....

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"Run Betty! The giant chicken's sticking to the pan"!