Beast POV with new brakes

Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:04 AM

Dennis,

Those rules apply to everyone riding. Enthusiasts or not, the rules are rules. If the park caught an enthusiast taking pictures while riding, there is no doubt in my mind they wouldn't blink an eye when throwing that individual out. Remember, enthusiast are really no different than the GP. We may just ride more and know more about them, but once a enthusiast is in a train, they follow the same track like everyone else.

Without naming anyone in particular, I do know of one enthusiasts that lost his camera one one of the coasters you mentioned before, and he has ridden it a LOT. I also know another enthusiasts that was talking on a cell phone during a ride and lost his phone and was also quoted as saying, " I will never lose this thing on a ride".

-Sean

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:12 AM

Well, like I said, I'm not condoning my own attitude, I'm just telling it like it is.

If it makes you feel better, I only shot photos on two coasters last year (The Legend and Mahattan Express), and only on the lifts. And I have been leaving my camera in my pocket during rides in the last year or so.

I suppose my mistake is speaking for all enthusiasts when I say they can be more responsible. I maintain that *I* can responsibly take photos while riding. However, since apparently Shaggy and his former ride-op buddies all are going to pummel me next time I'm at PKI :) I will promise not to take photos on-ride anymore. How about that?

-Dennis (who just looked at Shaggy's photo and realized it might be a pretty even fight..:)..)

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He let the contents of the bottle do the thinking; can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:13 AM

I agree Den. I take on ride pictures and will continue to do so. Generally I only take them while cresting the first hill and put it away though. I'm not being vigilant, and I'm not doing it arrogantly, but after 27 years, I know what I'm capable of doing safely.

I respect everyone's opinion that feel otherwise and also respect the job that operators do as well. At the plant where I work, I'm an environmental and SAFETY technician. I live and breathe safety 40 hours a week If I can deal with hazardous chemicals on a daily basis safely, why in the world can't I keep a camera in my hands? I'm not asking you to trust me, because I trust myself.

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Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like bananas.

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:18 AM

I was hoping this wouldn't be the first response, but I knew it would be. No, I don't think enthusiasts are exempt. I just think that they should be able to be trusted with more responsibility.

Not me, I think we should be watched more carefully because we get lax in our concerns.

Say you get a new job. When you first start, no way they let you take the big bag of money to the bank - you might lose it. But as you gain experience, the chances of you losing it lessen, and sooner or later you're completely trusted to deposit the money with no supervision.

Ahhhh, but the real risk is with a seasoned employee that sees the opportunities and chances to take some of that cash and is more tempted to try and get away with it. Why? Just as you said, they are not being closely supervised and are more comfortable in what they are doing.

This attitude obviously applies to camera-carrying enthusiasts too; otherwise, cameras would not be allowed at ERT events. If enthusiasts are just as prone to dropping cameras as the GP, then why do parks sometimes allow cameras during ERT? Isn't that just as dangerous... or even MORE so since lots of people have cameras?

I have only been to two (of many many) enthusiast events where this was allowed...SRM and Spring Con at SDC. SRM... the park is terribly nice and trusting. SDC the cameras had to be duct taped by a ride supervisor to the rider. I have NEVER seen personal cameras or recorders allowed on a ride at PKI outside of media events. Bottom line, it is each park's resonsibility to decide what is or is not a safety hazard and when is or is not a proper time to allow things. I trust those in charge at a park to decide what rules should exist, and I honor them.

In my opinion, if taking a camera on a ride is the worst rule you ever break, or is the worst risk at which you put people around you, you're doing pretty good.

I disagree completely. You are not doing pretty good, you're doing pretty bad. Why would any "enthusiast" readily want to break a rule or expect a bending of the rules?

Think in terms of any ride. Just because I have ridden Drop Zone countless times, am I more apt to be trusted to hold a penny?

Or think in terms of any part of a park. Just because I swim well does that mean that I should not be supervised at the Wave Pool or be allowed to swim near the wave making machine?

I see too many dads smoking cigarettes in kids' faces and letting them roam around the back seat of the car going 70mph to think that I'm putting anyone at risk.

But my point is, to me enthusiasts or any riders for that matter are acting just as the "Dads" you describe above. They may not think about it, or think any danger may come of it. they may think they have complete control, or know what to expect.

But the truth is.... they dont, we don't. That is why safety rules and warnings exist. They are not there for a select few, or for enthusiasts to think... "Oh, that means everyone BUT me." They are there for our safety. To ignore them is.... ignorance.

Shaggy

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Shaggy
A.K.A. John K.

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:24 AM

I know everyone is sick of reading my rants by now.....

BUT..............

Let me lighten my tone. Hee hee. I am not angry at anyone. Actually I have loved every second of discussing this. You do not have to worry about me pointing you out at a park or singling you out as a rule breaker.

I'll just not want to sit near you when you are breaking a rule ;-) Mostly for vanity purposes.

Shaggy

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Shaggy
A.K.A. John K.

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:31 AM

Shaggy,

Ever driven over the speed limit? Even 1mph? If so, you're just as guilty as I am. Ever passed someone and forgotten to honk your horn as a warning? What?? Yep, it's in the rulebooks - at least in Ohio.

Ever flipped a toothpick out the car window? That's littering. Ever cut the corner on a crosswalk? That's jaywalking. Ever dumped a handful of leaves or sticks into the trash bin instead of putting them out for the mulch truck?

Just curious if you've ever broken these rules, all in place for reasons of safety.

-Dennis (:)... inserted to maintain light tone... heh)

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He let the contents of the bottle do the thinking; can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:45 AM

Hehehe, asking some enthusiasts to NOT bring cameras on board rides is alot like asking a teenager to refrain from sex. If someone wants POV for their website, not PKI, Shaggy or anyone else is going to change that fact. If a park sets a rule and it is broken, it IS the park's responsibility to enforce that rule. I'd argue that parks DO know exactly what's going on, but choose when and where to enforce it. I've seen so called *important* members of the enthusiast community mount cameras on their arm in FULL VIEW of the park's management. Why was this allowed? Perhaps because the park in question was opening a new coaster and wanted all the publicity they could get.

Don't get me started on the hypocracy of parks and their "rules".

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:49 AM

Den - There is a big flaw in that argument. Most of the examples you make reference to are ones of absent-minded, accidental violations, not "premeditated' ones.

By taking pictures while riding, one is consciously making the decision to ignore warnings and purposely break the rules.

Does someone offer a certified On-Ride Photography class that I didn't hear about? I doubt it, and doubt that just because we're enthusiasts we are any more or less likely to safely use a camera while riding.

Homey G.- Why would your ability to deal with hazardous chemicals make you any more or less competent in operating a camera at 55 MPH?

General note: It's funny how many "enthusiasts" will chime in about how they should be able to break rules they think they're above, but chastise a park or park chain for allowing rules they agree with to be broken (line jumping, smoking, etc.).

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"He's blazin' away like the stars in the universe.." A. Vega + M. Rev "Ghostrider"

*** This post was edited by chris on 4/17/2002. ***

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:51 AM

Ever driven over the speed limit? Even 1mph?

Yep, many times. And paid for it. Many times.

If so, you're just as guilty as I am.

Of speeding or taking pictures on rollercoasters?

Ever passed someone and forgotten to honk your horn as a warning?

Never do honk as I pass.

What?? Yep, it's in the rulebooks - at least in Ohio.

Wonder why? Isn't there also a rule about not unnecessarily honking your horn?

Ever flipped a toothpick out the car window? That's littering.

No, I don't use toothpicks. I live in KY so I use my pinky finger. And littering is a pet peeve of mine.

Ever cut the corner on a crosswalk?

Yes, but not in Cincinnati or Louisville... You'll get a ticket for it.

Ever dumped a handful of leaves or sticks into the trash bin instead of putting them out for the mulch truck?

No, apartment life.

Just curious if you've ever broken these rules, all in place for reasons of safety.

Sure, some of them. I am not perfect, far from it actually. But, I recognize that it IS wrong.

Just because I have driven for X amount of years should not give me permission to break the speed limit. Just because I have crossed streets safely for my entire life does not make it right for me to jaywalk.

Perhaps there are things that I am doing that I do not realize are wrong, but I am doing them. Typically I am the type of person that corrects myself once I learn I am breaking a rule. It's just the way I was raised. And I guess that's the whole idea behind my thoughts. I cannot comprehend, condone, or understand why people knowingly WANT to break the rules or think they are above them.

No need for extra smiley faces, I know you are not being malicious, I hope you realize I am not either. We're cool. But just in case.... :0)

Shaggy

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Shaggy
A.K.A. John K.

*** This post was edited by Shaggy on 4/17/2002. ***

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:57 AM

Shaggy, no offense at all, I love these discussions.

Honestly, I have thought many times about taking cameras on rides, how it is against rules, etc. Because I am not a rule-breaker, either. I'm not even a rebel.

It just comes down to the fact that in this case, I weighed the results to the possible risks, and found the results to be favorable to me and the risks minimal. I realize that, applied to other situations, this logic can be very dangerous. I thought of that a few posts ago and that's why I decided not to take my camera on anymore.

Although I'd say there's also a difference between breaking laws set out by the government vs. breaking rules set out by a corporation. Wouldn't breaking the law be worse than a rule? Does PKI's "fourth-degree misdemeanor" apply to cameras?

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He let the contents of the bottle do the thinking; can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 8:58 AM
Since I can't let a good "discussion" go away without my 2 cents worth.....I'm going to say it here like I do every time picture-taking comes up: Please wear a wrist strap when taking a camera on board....I'm not interested in "the letter of the law" so to speak, moreso I don't want ANYONE to get hit by a camera traveling upwards of say 106.7 mph....

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Any resemblance between this post and humor is purely coincidental. No robots were harmed in the filming of this episode...The sarcasm filter default has been left ON for your enjoyment.

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 9:13 AM

Rollergator just summed up my general feelings in 3 sentences. Of course it took me a dozen posts ;-)

But that's Shaggy for 'ya.... Mr Long Winded.

I prefer to not go into too many details. But I learned this lesson the hard way as a ride op. I personally did not break the posted rule, but was involved heavily in 3 terrible situations where people did..... and paid for it. I don't like to focus on bad things that happened at PKI. I had 1000 good experiences at PKI vs my 2 or 3 bad ones.

So I'll try and sum up the PKI lessons like this.....

1. Facial injuries due to person loosing loose camera.

2. Ride op dismissed on spot during employee ride night for riding with hands up... resulted in a broken wrist.

3. Person riding in an unsafe manner and busted face on corner of train, I helped them and ended up with blood all over me..... can you say "health concerns?"

I repeat these not to scare anyone, or make anyone feel sorry for me. I just say them because they exemplify people that ignored the warnings and ended up affecting not only themselves, but those folks around them.

Shaggy

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Shaggy
A.K.A. John K.

*** This post was edited by Shaggy on 4/17/2002. ***

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 9:15 AM
I hate this segregation of enthusiasts and GP. Like enthusiasts aren’t members of the general public! This is ridicules, enthusiasts are customers of the amusement park, nothing more, nothing less. They must abide by the same rules and procedures. Some people think they are entitled to extra privileges just because they send in some money to join a coaster club. I wish these people would get it through their heads that they are just like anybody else attending the park that day. It would prevent a lot of problems and conflicts that these “enthusiasts” have caused in the past.
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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 9:58 AM

Shaggy said:
"Ever driven over the speed limit? Even 1mph?

Yep, many times. And paid for it. Many times.

If so, you're just as guilty as I am.

Of speeding or taking pictures on rollercoasters?
{SNIPPAGE}
Just because I have driven for X amount of years should not give me permission to break the speed limit. Just because I have crossed streets safely for my entire life does not make it right for me to jaywalk.

Perhaps there are things that I am doing that I do not realize are wrong, but I am doing them. Typically I am the type of person that corrects myself once I learn I am breaking a rule. It's just the way I was raised. And I guess that's the whole idea behind my thoughts. I cannot comprehend, condone, or understand why people knowingly WANT to break the rules or think they are above them."


So "every" time that you've been speeding in your car, it is *solely* because you were unaware of the posted speed limits? *Not once* did you say to yourself "Self, I feel like driving a little fast today. Yes, I saw the sign that said 40mph, but I can go 50mph and still be aiight. If I get caught, I'll pay the fine, but I dont think I'll get caught. It's *only* ten miles over..."

I dont know about you, but I have this conversation with myself *every* time I get in the car (though it only takes nanoseconds). I *know* what the rules are, and frankly, dont care. I think most of the speed limits are set too low in this country. What I *should* do is lobby for the limits to be raised. But what I *do* do is drive whatever speed I feel is reasonable. Am I absolved from the law? No! But the posted price (the cost of the fine) is acceptable to me. I'll pay it and move on...to speed another day.

Same with pics on rollercoasters, I've not taken many. Really, I've only taken three, on Magnum, Beast and Mean Streak and then *only* on the lift hills where I was supremely confident I wouldn't lose it. Am I rationalizing or justifying myself after the fact? Perhaps...

As for the whole GP/enthusiast thing, if you've been playing along at home then you know that I do not consider myself an enthusiast. As such, I do not believe that so-called enthusiasts should be held to a different standard. We are ALL GP....PERIOD. The same rules apply: You play..you PAY!

Finally to chris: you are exactly right. One who is a scofflaw against one park rule really loses the "moral highground" to berate another for violating a different rule....unless that person is an admitted hypocrite. In which case they are telling you right off the bat that they have conflicting views. At that point, what else can you do?
lata,
jeremy
--a self-serving, opinionated, hypocritical, pontificating bastard :)

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Besides, if we were really shutting down people we disagreed with, would Jeremy (2Hostyl) still be around? :) I think not. - Jeff 1/24/02

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 10:09 AM

General note: It's funny how many "enthusiasts" will chime in about how they should be able to break rules they think they're above, but chastise a park or park chain for allowing rules they agree with to be broken (line jumping, smoking, etc.).

The difference here is that some broken rules automatically annoy and/or harm people, and others don't. For example, smoke in line and you *will* annoy someone. Line-jump and you *will* make the wait longer for everyone behind you.

However, take a camera on a ride and chances are 99.99999% that no one will be affected. Same with speeding, jaywalking, etc.

Jeremy, I'm with you on not considering myself an enthusiast. I don't even own a coaster T-shirt.

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He let the contents of the bottle do the thinking; can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding.

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 10:22 AM

So "every" time that you've been speeding in your car, it is *solely* because you were unaware of the posted speed limits? .....

Nope, I knowlingly and willingly broke the law. It is wrong and I admit it. It is a stupid concious decision. It puts not only myself in danger, but also puts those on the road or those perhaps riding with me in harms way. Of course the older I get the more I realize it, and yes, when I am tempted to speed I honestly ask myself if it is worth taking that chance. I am finding that with each passing day, the result to that question is changing. My goal is to always recognize that it is wrong to break the rule and in the end it is not worth it.

I dont know about you, but I have this conversation with myself *every* time I get in the car

Hmmmmm, talking to yourself again Jeremy? ;-) Don't feel bad, I talk to myself all the time. I am a terrifc conversationalist accorrding to me.

Am I rationalizing or justifying myself after the fact? Perhaps...

But is it right? In your eyes it is because you succeeded. My point is, what if you hadn't?

The same rules apply: You play..you PAY!

Your preaching to the choir man!

Hey, I dare not cast stones. But I do challenge myself to ignore the things in my head that keep saying "Go ahead, You won't get caught, it's really safe....." I would feel pretty scuzzy if I knocked a person behind me unconcious just because I wanted apicture for my website.

Shaggy

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Shaggy
A.K.A. John K.

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 10:25 AM

Den - But now you're making subjective value judgements about which rules are worth respecting and which aren't. You feel that it's safe for you to have a camera on board, so you don't feel that the rules should apply to you. The problem is, it's not up to you. It's up to the park who will have to dish out mad cash when your camera bashes some kid in the face. Even if it only happens .00001% of the time.

By the way - Just what do people who visit multiple amusement parks in multiple states and frequent internet message boards about amusement parks consider themselves, if not an enthusiast?

Particularly when they describe themselves like this: "--a self-serving, opinionated, hypocritical, pontificating bastard." Sounds like "enthusiast" to me. ;)

I've always been curious.

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"He's blazin' away like the stars in the universe.." A. Vega + M. Rev "Ghostrider"

*** This post was edited by chris on 4/17/2002. ***

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 10:27 AM

Tell you what Chris, I'll get you day pass and you can come visit the hazardous storage building with me and I'll let you deal with some good stuff called methyl isocyanate. You're more than welcome to go to google.com and enter that along with Bophal, India and see what it did to a few thousand people over there in a Union Carbide plant in 1984. Then after you do that, you tell me which is more dangerous. THAT or taking a picture while going up the lift at about 4 mph. ;)

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Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like bananas.

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 10:36 AM

Homey G. - You missed my point.

I work for a law firm that deals in Hazardous Materials Litigation all the time, and I'm well aware of the "hazards." I wasn't trying to say that what you do doesn't require skill, or anything of the sort. My point is that I don't see how handling hazardous materials and coaster photography are related.

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"He's blazin' away like the stars in the universe.." A. Vega + M. Rev "Ghostrider"

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Wednesday, April 17, 2002 10:39 AM

Chris,

Well you just made my point! :) You proved that what I do is more complex and dangerous than strapping my camera to my wrist! It's different, but if I have to skill and where-with-all to do MY job, certainly I have the cognative skills to pull off the other. ;)

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Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like bananas.

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