"You Won't See Any More Goliaths"

^^ I couldn't have said it better myself.

I still say look for a major coaster coaster at each park once the renovations/overhaul are complete to draw the guests in. After that is all done, look for parks to get coasters about once every 4-5 years after that. I also think they will be evenly distributed under this management team. No more 4 coasters in one year deals or no more a new coaster here every year or two years and none over here for five or six years (or more in some cases). In the end it will all be for the better.

New rides will come, just family oriented rides and maybee an ocasional thrilling flat ride thrown in for good measure.

I'm looking at statistics on http://www.churchofsteelle.com/blog1/nvsr54_02.pdf The number of births has been increasing since 1995 - there are more 1 yr olds than 10 yr olds. Mothers are having children later in life. Shapiro wants the 40 yr old first time parents (who may have shelled out big bucks for fertility treatments to begin with) who already have good jobs and homes and don't want to deny anything to the precious little pumpkins they waited so long to have. Wholesome kiddie lands will give them a destination (look for ads for clean, character-filled non-smoking parks in Parents magazine?). Those little monsters will get every plushy and inflatable known to man, and their target parent won't wince at the admission price.

The previous birth peak was in 1990, making those kids 15. Their parents can't order them around and make all the destination decisions for them, but they can take the family to Park X instead of Park Y because X has better family shows (having a flashback here). If new coasters aren't coming in (to any parks), teens will keep riding the old ones (and as soon as they can drive a lot will be going places other than amusement parks). Little ones growing up will look forward to the day when they can ride Nitro. Every few years they can add a new coaster to keep things fresh, not necessarily a giant but enough to keep interest.

Eventually they'll be another baby bust and management will have to start appealing to the older kids again. It seems like a sound business model.

^Interesting take on things. :)

Much more thought out and potentially informative than "They can't possibly survive without new rollie coasters!" ;)

Because, guess what? They can.

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Alan T. said:

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coasterguts said:
Shapiro needs to keep in mind "families" have teenagers to. Their not going to ride kiddie rides the rest of their life. They need to add thrill rides for teens so when they get big enough they have rides to ride at the park as well.

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The parks are already chock full of thrill rides for the teens. They are talking about adding things for the rest of the family to do as well. They haven't started removing the thrill rides for family rides. They will still be there to keep the teens occupied. The idea now is that after the family visits the park this year, everyone will have had a good time and want to return again--not just the teens. That is how they market it--Six Flags...fun for the "whole" family!

Alan T.

Alan T.

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Ah! Not all parks are full of thrill rides to keep teens busy. In fact some parks are loosing thrill rides. I'm not talking just coasters. I can think of one park that has lost two flat rides in the past five years and a third is on its way out.

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Jeffrey Seifert said:
^According to press releases, 2000 saw a disappointing increase of only 4% to 3.43 million visitors at CP. If I am doing my math correctly that comes out to about a 137,000 increase in attendance. Although attendance was up for the entire chain in 2001 it dropped 9% at CP. I have to agree with Rob, the numbers just don't add up.

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I'm suprised that no one seems to take into account what the increase in hotel stays were during the first years of Millie. Those increased stays (if there are any) would also be attributed to Millie.

Anyway, I, for one, am OK with a serious slow down of SFI coasters. They *should* be looking at some more diverse attractions. And by that I do *not* mean the super-over-the-top-flip-you-til-you-puke flat rides, but rather more tame, yet still potentially spectacular rides. I'll use this opportunity to once again submit my request for a Huss Delirium. This could be a hugely marketable "family ride".

Also, it wouldnt hurt to see a few more minetrain/speedracer type coasters. There is a segment of coaster, when done right, can be a good family ride.
lata, jeremy

A new article in a paper from near SFGAm. says a few things in a different way than what the Atlanta paper does. http://www.dailyherald.com/news/lakestory.asp?id=147698

The plan will remain the same to make Six Flags more of a family experience (I think things will be more similar to what the parks were like in the late 70's or early 80's).

While I'm excited about finally getting my picture taken with Taz, Elmer Fudd and Batman. I can't help thinking about the headline in the Washington Post: "Six Flags America over ran by mascots of Warner Brothers and the Justice League". 30 Mascots in some of these small parks is going to be a lot of mascots. But, I'm all behind it.

Bringing the Justice League to DC might not be a bad idea, under any administration.

Their already in DC and it doesn't seem they want to help. It seems their just as lazy as the rest of the SFA staff. :)

SF parks should take a look at Paramount Canada's Wonderland: you don't gotta have the best roller coasters, all you need is that massive choice of flats, kiddie rides, a free water park and a somewhat better guest services. Now some SF parks are in way bigger markets then PCW so obviously something is wrong.. IMO SF does install tooo many coasters.. take a look at what i made up using rcdb:

SIX FLAGS

Not including any non-flagged parks i.e La Ronde, Great Escape, etc.

1998

SFA

- Roar!; 1998

SFAW

- Texas Tornado; 1998

SFDL

- Boomerang: Coast to Coaster; 1998

SFGAdv

- Blackbeard's Lost Treasure Train; 1998

- Batman & Robin: the Chiller; 1998

SFGAm

- Spacely's Sprocket Rockets; 1998

SFKK

- Twisted Twins; 1998

SFMM

- Riddler's Revenge; 1998

SFMW

- Kong; 1998

- Boomerang; 1998

SFOT

- Mr. Freeze; 1998

SFSt.L

- Mr. Freeze; 1998

1999

SFA

- Two-Face: the Flipside; 1999

- Joker's Jinx; 1999

- Great Chase; 1999

SFAW

Serial Thriller; 1999

SFEG

Boomerang; 1999

SFDL

- Superman: Ride of Steel; 1999

SFFT

- Poltergeist; 1999

- Boomerang; 1999

SFGAdv

-- Medusa

- Roadrunner Railway; 1999

SFGAm

-- Raging Bull; 1999

SFMM

- Canyon Blaster; 1999

SFMW

- Roadrunner Express; 1999

- Roar!; 1999

SFOG

- Georgia Scorcher; 1999

SFOT

- Batman: the Ride; 1999

2000

SFA

- Superman: Ride of Steel; 2000

SFFT

- Superman:Krypton Coaster; 2000

SFH

Flying Dutchman Gold Mine; 2000

La Via Volta; 2000

Robin Hood; 2000

Xpress; 2000

SFKK

- Road Runner Express; 2000

SFMM

- Goliath; 2000

SFMW

- Cobra; 2000

- Medusa; 2000

SFM

- Batman: The Ride; 2000

- Medusa; 2000

SFNE

- Superman: Ride of Steel; 2000

- Poison Ivy's Tangled Train; 2000

SFO

- Dominator; 2000

- Steel Venom; 2000

- Villain; 2000

- Beaver Land Mine Train; 2000

SFSt.L

- Boss; 2000

2001

SFA

- Batwing; 2001

SFB

Cobra; 2001

Loup-Garou; 2001

SFGAdv

- Nitro; 2001

SFGAm

- Deja Vu; 2001

- V2: Vertical Velocity; 2001

SFMM

- X; 2001

- Deja Vu; 2001

- Goliath Junior; 2001

SFMW

- V2: Vertical Velocity; 2001

SFOG

- Deja Vu; 2001

SFOT

- Wile E. Coyote's Grand Canyon Blaster; 2001

- Titan; 2001

SFWoA

- X-Flight; 2001

2002

SFEG

- Flying Coaster; 2002

SFNE

- Batman: the Dark Knight; 2002

SFOG

- Superman: Ultimate Flight; 2002

2003

SFGAdv

- Superman: Ultimate Flight; 2003

SFGAm

- Superman: Ultimate Flight; 2003

SFKK

- Greezed Lightnin'; 2003

SFMM

- Scream!; 2003

SFMW

- Zonga; 2003

SFNO

- Batman: The Ride; 2003

- Jester; 2003

2004

SFEG

- Half Pipe; 2004

SFGAm

- Ragin' Cajun; 2004

SFM

- Superman: Ultimate Escape; 2002/2004

SFOG

- Wile E. Coyote Canyon Blaster; 2004

2005

SFGAdv

- Kingda Ka; 2005

SFNE

- Mr. Six's Pandemonium; 2005

2006

SFMM - TATSU
SFGAdv - EL TORO
SFOG- GOLIATH
LR - GOLIATH

Now don't tell me thats not alot of coasters. Imagine how much money that cost them? Obviously it lead them $2B in debt, and left them with slumping attendance figures. The change is needed and perhaps it is good for a while. Maybe it will make a newer coaster seem like such a more better experience cuz Sharpio is right, you can't add a new coaster and expect everything to be alright. There is SO much more to it and everyone is being so greedy only caring about themseleves and how they don't get one more availible coaster to go Credit Whoring on. *** Edited 1/28/2006 2:11:16 PM UTC by j_o_e_y__***

In that Daliy Herald article, it generically states "

There were a few other forces at work that played into that equation.

The 9-11 attacks caused folks to avoid the parks,as did the economic downturn caused by that as well as the Bush leadership squandering the surplus ammased during the Clinton years.

The overall condition of the parks also is a factor as operations & atmosphere has gone downhill...simply put most people don't want to return regardless of what is added in terms of rides.

The big 18 coaster building spree of 01 for the chain's 40th anniversary,many of those rides either failed to open their debut season or have been less than positive due to all their mechanical problems,problems that are primarily the fault of the design firm rather than the parks themselves.

Last but not least the lack of new additions over several years at some locations(not just SFA here) while focusing on only three parks for new additions.

I work in the travel industry. After 9/11 people generally stayed closer to home and visited local sights. Destination parks, such as Disney World and Disneyland, saw an attendance drop as fewer people traveled long distances. Regional parks actually saw an attendance increase. Those changes in behavior lasted about a year but have long since dissipated. IIRC 2004 saw an attendance increase of just over 4% nationally.

And, as usual you just can't resist singing your old song, "SFA hasn't received anything new." How about the FOUR YEARS in which the park received SIX COASTERS? Wanna guess how many Six Flags parks didn't receive such a good treatment? And how about that nice waterpark retheming and additions in 2005?

Someone bump BATWING SFA FAN...his needle is skipping.

I can't remember, what was Six Flags debt when Premier bought them in 1998? I thought it was around the $1.8 Billion Mark or something like that.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't that bad... remember, when Premier bought Six Flags, they were buying SFOG, SFOT, SFGAdv, SFMM, SFStL, and I'm sure I'm missing a couple more. Just those first four parks alone would cost a pretty penny, then add in the crazy amount of spending that was required to convert many of the Premier parks into SF parks (SFA, SFWOA, SFDL, SFNE, SFNO, SFMW, and I know there are others)... and I'm pretty sure that is how the debt got so large.

This website (surprised it's still up) one Mr. Freeze at SFOT has the press release of when Premier bought Six Flags in 1998.

http://home.comcast.net/~gep-2/mrfrfeb8.html (scroll down a little bit)

The debt was $890 million (I think that Time Warner added to that debt a lot when they bought SFOT mangement back after Premier tried to take it away).

Just a correction Joey about Ride of Steel at SFA. It was bought the year before 2000 and was sitting in a field behind Joker's Jinx, so I would add that into 1999's total.

Doesn't Batwing have a statement already on his clipboard ready to be pasted into any Six Flags (or other discussion) forums? To me, it would seem like a huge waste of time to keep typing the same thing over and over again, unless you're practicing your keyboarding skills.

I'm definitely down with the Laser Show. The one at SFFT that gets projected onto the quarry wall was amazing, and all the speakers were time-aligned. I was really happy to catch the laser show at Dorney after not having time to watch it at Cedar Point in 2000, and then they killed it the year after for Meteor.

A think a parade is not a bad idea, as long as the speakers are time-aligned (I'm talking to you PKD). The Nickolodean parade was relatively small in length, but had lots of colorful floats and people. It was just very jarring to walk along the parade route and listen to speakers that weren't in time with each other, since the music was so loud. It's kind of like when people are cruising and five people are competing to have the loudest stereo system, using five different songs.

I feel that the original management didn't realize that they were building more rides than what was needed or required. A big $15 million rollercoaster can see an attendance bump over a period of up to two or three years past its debut, if its introduction and follow up marketing, advertising, and promotion is carried out thoroughly and correctly. Adding coasters year after year (case in point, Magic Mountain from '97 to '03) really is not economically choice.

I'll use Magic Mountain as an example. Goliath at Magic Mountain opened in 2000 and was a big hit among locals and visitors and I am most sure it had enough momentum as an advertising vehicle to carry the park through the 2001 season easily -- yet the park announced a 3-coaster "bombshell" for 2001 (consisting of X, Deja Vu, and Goliath Jr.). That really was not necessary. The park still had swarms of people in 2001 going to the park with intentions of riding Goliath for the first time whilst during this time, another three rollercoasters were being erected.

The decision to allow for Scream!'s installation in '03 was also a poor choice in a few ways. First, the previous year, X made its officialy debut. The hysteria and hype around this ride in the Southern California area was unbelievable. Everytime you mentioned "theme park, "Six Flags" or "Magic Mountain," the question of 'whether or not you've been on X' was always brought up. Again, like Goliath's example, X could have carried Magic Mountain through at least two seasons with little effort if its image was marketed correctly and frequently. When Scream! opened, you had most visitors going to the park to ride the new coaster "X," and are surprised to find that a newer coaster had opened just recently.

So when statistics and attendance figures showed that Scream! did not boost attendance by a margin as what was expected, it showed that X was still "hot," and Scream!'s installation was not needed considering the conditions did not warrant it. It was also a big step back and down from X. When you introduce something as revolutionary and outrageous as X and follow it up with something like Scream! (though enjoyed, was described by many of my friends as "simple."), you just don't get the "wow" factor from guests anymore.