"You Won't See Any More Goliaths"

First off, I really am glad to see Shapiro walking around his parks and taking a good look at their current conditions. Him noticing the negatives at SFoG is a good sign IMO, because that means he is really looking hard. SFoG is one the better maintained SF parks and has a lesser extent of the problems that plague the chain as a whole. If he sees a large number of issues at a park such as SFoG, they should stick out like a SORE thumb at some of the other properties. (i.e SFKK and SFMM).

On a side note, he better come back! Its the off season people, how many of the real problems could he possibly even see. With no employees providing less than satisfactory service and not even any customers to provide complaints and trash, how can he tell which parks are completely up to scratch right now.

Also, I do truly believe this meeting with the press to be a marketing opportunity for the Exec, and a rather large one. I wouldnt take everything stated in the article as 100% factual, because he is in a position right now where one wrong word could cause investor woes.

As far as what a good coaster installation cycle would be, I think at a minimum 3 years to a max of 6, anything less is not necessary and anything more would definitely require some sort of attractions to be added in between. SFoG in specific is in such a dire need of rides to eat up its crowds. The amount of flat rides that anyone is really interested in there could be counted on your hands. (And they took out GASP and Looping Starship last year!)

All the parks definitely need work and decisions seem to be ensuing in the coming seasons. Which ones will go and which ones wont? I say do not base it on only location, but also how much money it would take to bring the certain parks back to a quality place to go. I'd venture to say that the cost alone of beautifying SFMM would exceed a medium sized coaster installation anyway.

The man with the ideas is coming across as trying, but as soon as I see 1-train operations on a saturday at one of his parks this season, Ill know it was all just one big flop.

Here's Hoping!

Good Luck Six Flags

Side:
Also, did anyone think their quote of fewer than 2 million visitors to SFoG seemed low? I was looking for a list or something because Im sure one exists, but less than 2 million is definitely not a good way to be. I always thought they brought in more. Oh well

Getting back to the thread title: I'm not sure that even most enthusiasts think "no more goliaths" is such a bad thing. To wit: in Mitch's poll, the two shorter rockets are both rated higher than the two 400-footers, even by enthusiasts. On the other hand, our "favorite wood coaster" finished fourth in the steel poll. The super-sized coasters also have a limited appeal---for example, my wife's favorite CP coaster is Raptor. My daughter's favorite is Magnum. Neither one of them is willing to try Millennium yet, let alone Dragster.

And, if you really believe that families drive profits rather than teens and young adults, I think the "no more goliaths" strategy might turn out to be pretty smart. I'm the only one in my family who's been willing to ride anything installed in Cedar Point since the 2000 season. We'll see how Skyhawk goes, but I'm not holding my breath. In other words, our family continues to attend CP in spite of the new attractions they've installed, rather than because of them.

I don't know if the assumption (families are more profitiable) is true or not, as I don't get to look at the books. But, it sure sounds plausible to me.

I think that this is great news and everything but I just don't what to see them totally forget about coasters.......

I gave this some more thought on the way home from work, and when I thought about it, I tended to think of the hypercoasters as the family-oriented coasters. Sure they go fast, but, they don't go upside down and most have a relatively smooth ride (especially the B&Ms). Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you'll see a lot of families riding Goliath at SFOG and LaRonde.

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Rob Ascough said:
Millennium Force certainly got Cedar Fair a lot of positive press and there is no way to put a value on that but to say that the coaster not only paid for itself and a new hotel seems to be an exaggeration to me.

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Well if you want to get technical, the hotel probably went a long way toward paying for itself because as I recall it only cost a couple million to build. But you have to think of it as sustainable business in combination with whatever they budget for capital expenditures that year. Because...

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Jeffrey Seifert said:
^According to press releases, 2000 saw a disappointing increase of only 4% to 3.43 million visitors at CP. If I am doing my math correctly that comes out to about a 137,000 increase in attendance. Although attendance was up for the entire chain in 2001 it dropped 9% at CP. I have to agree with Rob, the numbers just don't add up.

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You're very much illustrating the point though... as years without a star attraction tend to see a decrease in attendance. It's also worth noting that the all-time high for that park was '94 when Raptor opened, at around 3.6 million. Anything over 3.4 is still in the high end of that range.

Again, I think you guys are looking at it as if the ride generates $25 million in additional profit year over year, and we know it doesn't. Much of that is funded by sustained interest from previous cap ex, and then anything that year, including increases, can be rolled into the next cap ex. You also completely ignore the fact that they've been growing the business in terms of revenue year after year, and in CP's case, growing it via the resorts. That's a lasting effect that new rides create.

It's a bit disheartening a coaster enthusiast to hear that large expensive coasters won't be the norm anymore. But I suppose it's about that time that the company shifts their direction down a new path.

But thanks to the old management and ALL the huge great rides we've come to know under their reign from 2000 - 2006. We will no longer see this number of large, high-tech, high thrill coasters and rides within a span of six years anymore under Snyder!

Nitro, X, Titan, Deja Vu (3), Scream!, Batman The Dark Knight, El Toro, Tatsu, Batwing, Superman Tower of Power, Kingda Ka, Superman Ultimate Flight (2), Goliath California, Ragin' Cajun, Superman Ride of Steel Massachussetts, The Boss, Medusa California, Goliath Georgia, Goliath Canada, Acrophobia Georgia, Vertical Velocity California, Vertical Velocity Illinois, Superman Krypton Coaster.

A bit selfish of me, but I'm glad that the "close to me parks have basically maxed out on their coaster offerings. Therefore, if they opt to go on a building hiatus, fine with me. . . . until the ride rotation program begins.

If Six Flags stops buying coasters who is going to buy them? Could this see more manufacturers going bankrupt? How many parks can afford a B&M? Dinsey are hardly going to buy any.

/\

Six Flags is (or should I say was) the biggest client of some of the largest thrillride and roller coaster manufacturing firms in the world. For example - from 1997 to 2006, it would be appropriate that approximately half (I'll go out of the way and personally say more than half) of the coasters B&M sold were to Six Flags parks.

Chang ('97), The Riddler's Revenge ('98), Raging Bull ('99), Medusa, NJ ('99), Batman The Ride, TX ('99), The Georgia Scorcher ('99), Medusa, CA ('00), Batman Knight Flight ('00), Superman Krypton Coaster ('00), Nitro ('01), Superman Ultimate Flight, GA ('02), Batman The Dark Knight ('02), Scream! ('03), Superman Ultimate Flight, IL ('03), Superman Ultimate Flight, NJ ('03), Goliath, Canada ('06), Goliath, GA ('06), Tatsu ('06).

Think about this-

What's the coolest thing to a kid in an amusement park? Big, scary-looking rides. Sure, kiddie rides are fun for a few years, but almost every kid I've ever known (including myself YEARS ago!) couldn't wait to be tall enough to ride the "grown-up" rides. Kids DO grow up, and they DO grow out of family-oriented rides. These are future customers, and if you shun them by not building rides that will appeal to them after they turn nine or ten, they won't want to come back. They'll want to go somewhere that does spend the money to build thrill rides, and that's where their money will go, too. I think Shapiro probably is looking at Disney as a model, but Six Flags isn't Disney. People with money and small children who want a family experience are going to go to Disney. That's their audience. For all the rest of us (especially those of us with no kids or kids who are old enough to realize the Disney parks are lame), we want somewhere to go where we can have fun. What's the old saying-"If we build it, they will come?"

It's a bit disheartening a coaster enthusiast to hear that large expensive coasters won't be the norm anymore.

Its only disheartening to those who like large, expensive coasters. Those of us who like small-medium wood coasters couldn't care less if another Kingda Ka or Nitro was ever built.

As for Shapiro's comments perhaps he was referring *specifically* to SFOG? Now that the park has it's Goliath there isn't a need for anything else that size *at that park!*

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pammiedawg said:

I think Shapiro probably is looking at Disney as a model, but Six Flags isn't Disney. People with money and small children who want a family experience are going to go to Disney. That's their audience.

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Ding ding ding ding ding ding!

Maybe, but maybe not. PKI has focused on family-friendly attractions for several years now, and is doing very very well. CP has been focusing on big loud scary thrill rides, and hasn't been doing all that well at all. And, personally, I'm not all that convinced that the Ohio Valley economy is all that much better than the Great Lakes economy...

But, as for this:

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What's the old saying-"If we build it, they will come?"

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I have three words for you: Six Flags Ohio.

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Krypton said:
Also, did anyone think their quote of fewer than 2 million visitors to SFoG seemed low? I was looking for a list or something because Im sure one exists, but less than 2 million is definitely not a good way to be. I always thought they brought in more. Oh well

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I'm 99% sure that if true, its the first time since 1967 that the park hasnt broken 2 million patrons. HOPEFULLY that won't be the case this year...

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Its only disheartening to those who like large, expensive coasters. Those of us who like small-medium wood coasters couldn't care less if another Kingda Ka or Nitro was ever built.

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So you can't like mid-sized wooden coasters, yet still enjoy and appreciate steel coasters too?

Agreed on the Kinzel BS, a quick fact check doesn't add up.

I said two years ago that B&M and Intamin have basically priced themselves out of the seasonal park markets.

TDD, I wouldn't do it again (Dick Kinzel)
We gotta quit buying multi million dollar rides and focus more on what is best for the park in the long run (Shapiro)

Paramount sure hasn't jumped on the B&M/Intamin wagon big time, And from in some cases like PKD and PKI is barred from building B&M due to contract agreements that they won't sell to competiors of buyers.

The great news is, Things are looking stellar for the 4-8 million dollar woodie :)

Chuck

So you can't like mid-sized wooden coasters, yet still enjoy and appreciate steel coasters too?

Of course one can, but such a person is not who I was referring to.

*** Edited 1/27/2006 3:10:51 AM UTC by Mamoosh***

4 new woodies a year wood be great! :D

Well this might be a stupid question, but this relates to the owner Mark Shapiro. For those who live near or in Cleveland, is that the same Mark Shapiro associated with the Cleveland Indiands?

From what I read he didn't say there were never going be any coasters again. Just maybe not as awesome and also by saying No More Goliath's that could simply just mean that it's not going to turn into the next Batman. Don't get so worked up til you see what He has to offer people gees.

That's exactly the kind of carnival attractions I wouldn't mind seeing, but Shapiro isn't looking for rides for thrill seekers and those flats are all pretty much targeted towards thrill seekers. Indeed, the LA and San Diego fairs blow away SFMM with their selection of thrill ride flats. Clearly SFMM needs alternative attractions from thos companies and the likes of Huss and S&S. But, those are not the types of rides Shapiro wants. Shapiro's idea of a family ride are things like a Dumbo spinner, etc., those rides meant for the under 8 yr. old crowd. Good luck getting people to pay a 15 parking charge, 60 buck tickets to check out the latest generic spinner ride for a toddler.