World's Largest Loop?

Just to throw a spanner in.. if overall coaster height is anything to go by. surely Superman at Warner Bros Madrid comes pretty close if not top?

Alright everybody, I've got a deal for you. All of you gather some funds for my plane ticket to Texas and one of those laser tape measure things, and I'll go scale the loop, and thus restore peace to the land of coasterbuzz with my findings.

I have heard all the arguments here, but you all seem to be missing one of the obvious really large loops out there and that is the first one on Kraken. If I am not mistaken, it is almost 170 feet tall (lift) and the loop would probably be in the 140 foot or higher range. I may be wrong about that, but you can sure see that thing sticking up from almost anywhere in the park.

SK610 - you might want to recheck your facts on Kraken, as you're a bit off:

Lift Height - 149 feet; First Drop - 144 feet

I'd guess the loop is about 120 feet tall, give or take.

mOOSH

http://www.rcdb.com/ig581.htm?picture=15

I'd put Kraken into the close-but-no-cigar category with Kumba etc. Probably at 114' (or approximately 35m for those playing along in metric which makes a whole lot more sense considering where these things are designed).

You've got Mr. Sieffert wrong on that one, he's not an SF fanboy, he's the ultimate anti-CF, therefore Dominator couldn't possibly be larger. Again, close, but no cigar on the labeling ;)

If you do the calc 114/3.28 to get metric, you get 34.76m. 137 (the supposed "diameter" of Dominator's loop) is 41.77m, which works out to roughly 7m of difference. If you go pure-cookie cutter on this, I would put S:KC's loop at 34.76 + 3.5 = 38.26m, or approximately 126 ft, which based on comparisons to Kraken's loop and Dominator's loop, seems about right, it falls right in the middle.

Wow, what a bunch of geeks we all are - like this really matters!?! :)

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dr_pepper_PhD said: And if you notice, roller coaster builders usally do a lot of "cookie-cutter" track elements to save on cost. It's a lot easier to make pre-determind sizes of track then custom building every ride differently.

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While that may be true with some coaster manufactures, B&M usually do everything custom. Sure, there are clones out there, but when comparing the two major coasters involved with this thread, both are total custom jobs from B&M. That's not to say there isn't going to be another loop out there that has similar stats to Dominator or any other coaster, but B&M usually do custom work and don't offer much in cookie cutter elements, despite some clones and similar layouts. It all boils down to the design and what is needed to get the job done.

I don't work for B&M but from some of the info I know about them, I doubt they look at a design and say, "Well, let's just add a Kumba loop here and move on to the next element because we are wasting too much time," or something of that nature. If a park wants a Batman clone, they can use the same information they used to build the other clones, but that doesn't mean they will be exact. Take a look at Mantis. The ending of Mantis has a very similar layout to the end of Iron Wolf, yet look how differet the two coasters are.

As far as looking at the two photos that were posted in the last page, unless the photographer that took the SKC picture had special access or something, that picture was taken further away than the Dominator photo. Anyone that has ridden both coasters can tell you can get walk much closer to the loop on Dominator than SKC. Sure, a zoom could have been used, but having ridden both rides, I think the loop on SKC is slightly larger. The photo of Dominator wasn't taken at the closest area possible, but I am very familar with the area where that picture was taken and have a visual reference to base my opinion.

Anyway, before anyone starts shouting fanboy or anything like that, I am a fan of both parks. I love both of the coasters and when I am riding them, I could care less about which loop is larger. As long as its a fun ride, I don't care.

-Sean

Check out this article from an interview with someone who DOES work at B&M.

Most specifically:

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Q: Is Silver Bullet similar to other suspended coasters you've built, such as "Batman the Ride" at Magic Mountain in Valencia?

A: Each one is design-specific for one park with all the elements that they want and need. This one has a much larger loop and a cobra roll.

Each element is specifically designed for that layout. For instance, you have a cobra roll, but there is an entrance speed and exit speed for that roll on each coaster, depending on each one's size and dimensions. So it might be similar with some of the same shapes, but it's a different experience when you ride it.

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That whole article was great, there is some good stuff along the lines of designing the loop too..

Does anybody know a B&M webiste/e-mail. I can't find anyway to contact them. I was just think about trying to ask them and see what they said. What better people to ask then the people who designed and built the thing. Any info would be great.

For the record, I've also ridden both. I think SFWoA is the larger of the two. I personally feel it has more G's entering it in and coming out of the loop. I also feel that it has more hangtime at the top.

I might also be a little biased, since I have also ridden Dominator over 200+ times in the last couple years, and only SKC only around 10.

Also, here are some pics that I think will help some of you out:

Overhead View

Across the lake view

Aslo on another note. It's hard to find Dominator pics looking down on it like SKC. Most pics of Dominator are looking up at it since people are SOooo close to the loop. It definetly can effect comparing the two.

Dominator also has another "problem" :

At some points when people take pics, they are taking them from around Serial Thriller or Texas Twister. Those who know the park, know the midway is MUCH higher there then down around the Raging Wolf Bob's area looking at the corkscrews and rest of the ride. Which I say if you take a picture down there it defintely can make the loop look different than from taking it up higher on the midway. That whole midway goes down starting before the first drop and bottoming out around the final helix.

I have quite a few pictures (unedited) that either make the loop look HUGE or make it look like any normal loop.
*** Edited 12/20/2004 2:53:13 PM UTC by RollerCoasterGod***

Some different views of the two coasters.

This is the "reverse angle" shot of Dominator.

SKC by the same people who took the Dominator picture.
A head on view of Superman.
Superman Kypton Coaster from atop the cliff walls.

And for comparison, a shot of the slightly smaller loop on Medusa at SFMW.

*** Edited 12/20/2004 4:51:13 PM UTC by SFZIP***

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dannerman said:
What's clearly obvious is that you are a SF fanboy who insists upon ignoring FACTS regarding measurements and basing your arguments on optical illusions. The sad part is if SF still owned Geauga Lake, you'd probably be on the side of Dominator, too.

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Other than the fact that I own stock in both companies (more in CF) I have no personal interest in either park. I don't care which coaster has the biggest loop, I'm just interested in the facts.

Is this what happens when you (and impulse-ive) have no bona-fide arguements, you resort to name calling?

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Exactly how is it that you know that the photo of SKC was taken from farther away? Did you personally take both pictures yourself? Rules of perspective would dictate that IF you took pictures of identical-shaped track (i.e. B&M track) and one was farther away, the track itself would appear different sizes. When analyzing the pictures with a good old plastic, see-through ruler, the widths of the square rail are just about identical (2.0mm, not counting the running rails)

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To me it does indeed appear that the track is smaller in the SKC photo, I've even enlarged them to take a better look. My conclusion was that the photo of SKC was taken from farther away, I didn't have to take the photos personally to make that determination. I also don't believe it is an optical illusion.

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Another thing to look for is the trains - they're both 8 cars long, and hence the same length. However, Dominator's train doesn't take up quite as much of the loop as SKC, implying that Dom has the bigger loop. Granted that this falls into the same fallacy as your observations, but I have the aforementioned measurements to back this up.

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In looking at the two photos presented side-by-side by SFWoARules the train in the SKC photo looks smaller to me. This is the same conclusion SFWoARules came to, and he even showed you the unit of measurement in the photos.

I've had this discussion in the past on the internet (usually with fewer personal attacks) and have been meaning to write to B&M but never got around to it. Looks like now would be a good time. If I get an answer I'll be sure to let all of you know.

How does this topic with such little importance enlicit such a stupid argument?

Finding out who has the tallest loop is about as important as finding out which of you guys has the biggest..................................track record.

In either case it is safe to say that I'm not riding.

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Impulse-ive said:

You've got Mr. Sieffert wrong on that one, he's not an SF fanboy, he's the ultimate anti-CF, therefore Dominator couldn't possibly be larger. Again, close, but no cigar on the labeling

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I'm glad someone read my trip reports.:) I've also been critical of SF operations too. To think that I don't want Dominator's loop to be larger simply because I dislike some of CF's policies is pretty absurd.

*** Edited 12/20/2004 5:39:13 PM UTC by Jeffrey Seifert***

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wahoo skipper said:
How does this topic with such little importance enlicit such a stupid argument?

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This is pretty much what these discussion groups are for...to talk about coasters. I like coaster facts and trivia and I've wanted to know for years which coaster had the largest loop and/or the tallest inversion. This is the most interesting discussion on that topic that I've seen. We've been presented with a variety of theories and lots of photographs. Unfortunately we haven't been able to come to a conclusion but (other than the personal attacks) I've enjoyed the discussion.

If you don't like the thread feel free not to read it. If you cannot add anything worthwhile to the discussion perhaps you should keep your opinions about it to yourself.

I wasn't referring to you J.S. in so much as I was referring to the inability of some people to have a discussion without it quickly and unnecessarily falling to a "he's a fanboy" mentality.

But, thanks for the advice on not reading a topic. I had never considered that before.

I'd say this piece of trivia gets about 12 "Hey's"!

Chairman- pull your lever!

Ray P.

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Jeffrey Seifert said:
Is this what happens when you (and impulse-ive) have no bona-fide arguements, you resort to name calling?

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No, only when you insisting on ignoring facts and measurements (aka the "bona-fide arguments") that has been put forth, seemingly only because they don't fit your opinion.

Personal attacks? More reactionary to yours and your insistence upon ignoring anything other than your own opinions: "I don't understand how anyone could possibly conclude otherwise" and the general tone of that whole post.

I apologize if I really offended you - my intent was to get you to realize that you're ignoring pertinent information.

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Jeffrey Seifert said:
In looking at the two photos presented side-by-side by SFWoARules the train in the SKC photo looks smaller to me. This is the same conclusion SFWoARules came to, and he even showed you the unit of measurement in the photos.

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However dr_pepper_PhD came to the opposite conclusion by taking the photos, and measuring the length of train vs. length of loop. (for reference, it's at the bottom of page 1 of the thread, and he also mentions that SFWoARules' measurements were inaccurate.. that post is on page 2).

How can one gain an acurate measurement from looking at a picture? Can you really tell how tall it is exactly? I mean sure, you can get a ball park figure, but I'm guessing these two loops are going to be very close in height, (although I still contend that it is common knowledge among people at SF Corporate that Batman did, but no longer does have the larger loop).

I'm talking about the size of the loop relative to the train size, which one can gain from looking at a picture provided that the trains are on the picture (which they are). As dr_pepper_PhD mentioned, you draw a rectangle around the train to get an approximate size of the train, and then see how many times you can fit it on the loop.

Although it is possible that the loops have different geometry (a circular loop has more track than a tear drop loop of the same height, for example).

Anyone get a letter back about this from B&M yet?

Oh, dr_pepper_PhD, to answer your question - I spoke with a B&M Ride Tech the one day I was at Dorney (he was there checking out progress of the ride - this was before it was officially announced). I actually asked him that question about website/email point-blank, and he said that B&M does not have an official website nor email address. They considered it, however they saw the response of Intamin's website and how they (Intamin) receives a lot of pointless mail that uses up resources ("hey mr intamin, u r so kewl. I <3 ur costers. thay r grate."). The only way to contact them is to send them snail mail at their postal address (you can find that info on rcdb)